god

Tony R wrote: Stephen Hawking believes in God and is a Christian. Just thought I would make that point.It shows that clear thinkers can have warped perception.

I don't believe you.

goose wrote: It's impossible to prove anything without making assumptions. Assumptions required to believe in scientific theory are just easier to make in this day and age.

The satellites orbitting earth prove the theory of gravity right. What kind of assumptions I have to do about it?

Tony R wrote: Logos wrote: Tony R wrote: I know what it is. Hawking mentions several time that he believes in God. Very surprising. I've never noticed that. And although he might have hinted that he believes in the existence of god ( which I still seriously doubt ) he certainly doesn't say IN THAT BOOK that he is a Christian. That I know for a fact. On the contrary , here's a quote from the book: "He [the pope] told us that it was all right to study the evolution of the universe after the big bang, but we should not inquire into the big bang itself because that was the moment of Creation and therefore the work of God. I was glad then that he did not know the subject of the talk I had just given at the conference - the possibility that space-time was finite but had no boundary, which means that it had no beginning, no moment of Creation." Sorry Logos a typo: I meant to write that he does believe in God but isnt a Christian!! () My bad,I cant even read my own posts properly....

that's whay you need to put a disclaimer in your sig like me.

VVVVVVV

Now it seems to me, there are several people here who just pass off the Bible as 'just a book'.  I have to ask, have you ever actually studied the Bible?  I never met one person who has actually studied it and passed it off as 'just a book'.  While everyones view of the Bible is different, I feel you really have to study it before making judgment.  I mean, how many of you would spazz out if I said 'Prog Rock sucks!' because I heard one song by Rush and Geddy Lee's 'gay hamster voice'? 

Moving on, I thought I should share what my dad wrote about the Bible.

The B-I-B-L-E: What it means to me

Leviticus 11:1 – 8

Acts 10: 9 -16

The B-I-B-L-E what does it mean to me?  It is a question I ask myself multiple times each day.  Is it the best selling book of all times?  Is it a history of a people?  Is it a collection of adventure stories with action heroes? Is it a trail guide as Dane pointed out last week in the children’s sermon?  Is it something that most homes in America have at least one of - we have at least 8 – 10?  How many of them are read?  How many sit on the shelf next to Dickens, Conan Doyle and Emerson gathering the same dust, so others think you are well read?  Hopefully they’re not shelved next to Jacqueline Susann and Tom Clancy.

Before I start to relate what the Bible means to me, let’s take a look at what it is and how it has been used.  Some definitions --

From the CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY we get this definition – A book or collection of sacred writings. The term "bible" is best known in reference to the Christian Scriptures consisting of the both the Old and New Testaments. The word comes from the Greek, biblios, meaning "book."

Or from Body and Mind -- The sacred book of the Christian religion, that consists of the Old Testament which is also sacred to the Jewish faith and the New Testament.

Or - The holy scriptures of the Christians, comprising 66 books: 39 in the Old and 27 in the New Testament.

From the Netdictionary - bible -- A detailed and sometimes authoritative reference book  covering a particular operating system, platform, or application. Originally, this was used generically to describe fundamental source books; more recently, it has been embraced by computer book publishers as a marketing ploy.  (AND SOMETIMES authoritative reference book )

These are all good definitions but not one of them or even all of them combined truly represents what the Bible means to me.  It is the holy word of God.  It is the authority and voice of God speaking to us. 
The Bible was probably originally conveyed orally. In a time when few people were literate and printing unknown, this was appropriate.  Since wide spread literacy is a fairly recent event, memorization and re-iteration of Bible lessons was and is quite common. The Book of Job is thought by many scholars to be the first of the books written down.  The “Torah" refers to the Five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.  It is so sacred to some Jews that they will run into a burning synagogue to save it – in fact some declare that to be doctrine from what I have been told.

Over history, people’s access to the Bible has been repeatedly hindered.  During the Dark Ages it was written in a language that the common people did not understand (Latin) and chained to the altar of the Church.  People could listen to the word but not hear it.  Image if this message was in a language you didn’t understand. 
A  bom  Sum David.
23:0   
23:1    |  joH'a'  ghaH  wIj  DevwI':
23:1      jIH  DIchDaq  Hutlh  pagh.
23:2    |  ghaH  chen  jIH  Qot  bIng  Daq
   SuD  tI yotlh.
23:2      ghaH  Dev  jIH  retlh  vIHHa'  bIQmey.
The famous Gutenberg Bible was the first major work to be printed with movable type thus allowing for greater circulation.  Two of the earliest components of the Reformation were the translation of the Bible into the vernacular and unchaining the Bible from the altar. By the way the King James Version was not the first English translation.  In England it was chained up again to stop it from being stolen.  Today the Bible is available in almost every language, including at least one that really doesn’t exist.  If you haven’t figured out what I just read to you it was Psalm 23: 1 – 2 in Klingon.
People hunger for copies of the Bible.  They go to jail for having a copy.  Yes they even suffer physical torture and even death to read the Bible!  This is not from the past this is going on today especially in some Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and Sub-Saharan Africa and Communists countries like China.  Why – there must be something in the Bible that makes these dictatorships fear.  Can it be the true Word?  Can you image not being able to read or own a Bible! Like so many things in our lives, we take this privilege for granted.  Would you be willing to risk your liberty or even your life to have access to God’s word? 
This is from an April 2003 news article: “Rules in Muslim host countries such as Kuwait "mostly prohibit the entry of alcoholic beverages, narcotics, munitions, pork and its by-products, pornography and material contrary to the Islamic religion," US Defence Department said.
Capt Tommy Vaughan, an army chaplain said nothing prohibits soldiers from carrying the Bible. "Soldiers are told they are permitted to carry two books; their soldier's handbook and a Bible."
Bible societies say the prohibitions on "material contrary to the Islamic religion" don't include Scripture and US troops and chaplains are requesting thousands of Bibles, the 'Washington Post' reported.
The Campus Crusade for Christ said it has been swamped by an average of 25,000 requests per month. Over 400,000 Bibles have been sent to troops in the past 18 months via military channels. Currently, it has orders for 42,000, many of those orders coming from the war zone, the group said.”

That is my quick history of the Bible’s spread.  Now I will tell you what it means to me.

Understanding the Bible has been a life long journey for me.  The more I study it – not just read it, the more I learn and the more I realize how much more there is to learn.  I have gone through phases in this journey, which in some respects follows the way the Bible has been used and accessed as I just outlined. 

Phase 1. Being told stories
I received my first Bible on June 14, 1958 from my parents.  I didn’t start school until August 1959 so obviously I wasn’t reading it myself.  When I think back – the earliest stories I remember hearing are those from the Bible – Adam and Eve, Noah, Moses, David, Jesus.  The earliest lessons I learned on how to behave came from the Bible – the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments.  By the way, Barbara and I have done the same with our kids; one of the first books they all received was a King James Version of the Bible.  And they have read them cover-to-cover.   

Phase 2. Reading and memorizing
Reading and memorizing passages and the books of the Bible in Sunday School, whether I was at the Baptist church in Stillwater, OK or the Lakeview Heights Reformed Church in Clifton, NJ or the ecumenical classes at Ft. Know, KY or Canterbury Presbyterian Church in Cornwall, NY.  It seems the stories were the same.  The stories of Moses – the basket in the bulrushes, the burning bush and the parting of the Red Sea.  Or there was David and Goliath – there is a story for an Army brat like me.  Of course who can forget Noah and the Ark or Daniel and the Lions Den. 

Then of course I heard the stories of Jesus.  Of his birth in a stable, how he walked on water and calmed the sea.  I don’t recall the story of the changing of water to wine at the wedding feast - probably to controversial for a Southern Baptist church.  I was told that he died – that he was crucified (what ever that meant) – and that he rose from the dead to save us. 

Phase 3.  Reading for myself
I then started to read these stories for myself along with the good old stand bys of the Lord’s Prayer and Psalm 23 – in English not Klingon.  Reading children’s versions of Bible stories was probably my first effort at this.  I know my kids started out that way.  I would memorize some versus but I do not think that I understood what they really meant. 

These “classics” where the stories I remember and that Barbara and I told to our kids when they were very young.  But do you notice what is missing from these stories.  We hear of the great accomplishments of the Old Testament leaders and of the beginning and end of Jesus’ life on Earth.  What is missing?  That takes me to phase 4 of my sojourn with the Bible. 

Phase 4 – The beginning of questions and answers
I have read the Bible through several times and am doing it again.  I read it nearly every day.  Each time, I find myself asking more and I think better or at least more thought provoking questions.  The first few times it seemed I was raising more questions then getting answers. 

How come does it seem the Bible contradicts itself?  I would ask.  It doesn’t but you have to study it to see the answers.  For example the reading for this morning from Leviticus tells us that we cannot it pigs, yet one of the traditional Easter meals is ham.  Why?  Or why can we eat cheeseburgers when the Jews are forbidden?  Acts 10: 9 – 11 helps answer this.  Now granted this is not necessarily a deep theological question for 21st century Christians, yet dietary laws are extremely important to many Jews today.  And until the Second Vatican Council members of the Roman Church were forbidden to eat meat on Fridays. 

Or – and this is the historian in me coming out – why are there few or no historical records supporting the Bible?  Biblical minimalist in history and Biblical Archeology play down the truth and accuracy of the Bible.  Yet there are more and more discoveries that corroborate the Bible’s accounts – not the other way around.  Here are two examples.  First - Until a few decades ago, the Hittites were only known through the few passages in the Bible that mention them.  Since then, extensive archeolical evidence has been found on Hettite civilization.  Second – King David is held by these naysayers to be a myth.  They pointed to the fact that no records of him exist.  A few years ago a document identifying a king as of the House of David was found. 

Phase 5 – Studying and the birth of understanding
Like many employees of Corning Incorporated I tend to work through most lunch breaks.  However, on Wednesday’s you can usually find me gathered with some co-workers meeting as the Sullivan Park Bible Study. 

Here we study in-depth specific books or topics.  Over the past three years we have studied, Job, Revelation, Ruth and now James.  What I am finding out is that the more I study, the more I understand.  The book of Revelation use to scare the pants off of me!  It was God going to get us.  Then came Erich Von Daniken, - Chariots of the Gods – and others who said that the Revelation of John was space ships and alien creatures.  This along with most of Von Daniken’s theories has been debunked.  Through the Bible study, I came to realize that instead of being the scariest book ever written, it is one of the most uplifting.  If you truly believe in Christ and his divine powers, you have nothing to fear.  Only goodness can come to you from the events in Revelation.

I also learned through studying Revelation and James that to understand the New Testament, you need to understand the Old Testament.  Something many Christian do not do enough of.  A good example of this is my better understanding of this morning’s readings. As I cited above, the two passages look like commentary on dietary laws.  But what Acts really is about is Jesus admonishing Peter for refusing to spread the Gospel to Gentiles.  Peter was a devout Jew who followed the Mosaic Laws.  These laws told Jews that they could have no contact with unclean things including Gentiles.  Jesus tells Peter that he (Peter) cannot make unclean those things that he has made clean (Gentiles) through his sacrifice.  Without understanding the Old Testament context of this story, its deeper meaning is lost on us.

The late Minister of Defense – Reggie White who besides being an incredibly talented football player was also a mister of the Word, realized this fact.  He did not preach the Word the last five years of his life because he came to feel that he did not understand the Old Testament enough.  Instead he studied it in its original language in an effort to better understand it.  Now I think that is admirable but it is not necessary or even feasible for all to do this.  What I feel is right for me is to find the best translation I can.  I believe that God reveals his Word to us in our hearts as well as our minds.

Phase 6  -- What’s next
My Bible journey does not have a 5-year plan. I am not certain what phase 6 will be.  But I am certain there will be a phase 6 and perhaps 7, 8 and beyond.

So there is what my dad has to say about the Bible.  I hope you find it educational, informative, somewhat moving and entertaining as well.  I know I did when he gave the sermon.  As for me, I have only read the Bible once, all the way, but probably 15 years of Bible study.  This Wednesday I head off to college to really begin to study the Bible and will gain more knowledge and understanding of 'that book'.

Tony:

May I add one?  This is Hawking on the "anthropic principle" (i.e., that the universe was created for the "purpose" of creating human life; i.e., that everything from the Big Bang forward led directly to "us"):

"It would be very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun in this way, except as the act of a God who intended to create beings like us."  Stephen Hawking.

Peace.

BaldJean wrote: hmm, I can't understand what the bible suddenly does in this thread. one can believe in a deity without the bible; there is more than just one religion

I thought I explained why I brought it up.  In fact, it was the first thing I brought up.

Yes, one can Believe in God without the Bible.  But the Bible is a great source of information, right?  And one who is studying the nature of God should use different resources.  Be it the Holy Bible, the Quoran, or Pain of Salvation's BE.

Tony R wrote: Sorry Logos a typo: I meant to write that he does believe in God but isnt a Christian!! () My bad,I cant even read my own posts properly....

Now that's more like it.