god

Snow Dog:

...And a dyslexic atheist is someone who is certain there is no dog...

BaldJean:

From a college english teacher: "God is not a little old man with a beard in a nightshirt writing down your good deeds in a golden book."  Love that one!

tangerine:

The problem with your "big bang" vs. "7 days" position is the same mistake that both atheists and faith-based people make: that issues like this have two mutually exclusive positions that are hopelessly at odds and completely irreconcilable.

I (and many other devout Christians - and, I'm sure, many atheists) do not believe this to be the case.  Indeed, if you have read my posts in the ELP thread and here, you will know that it is because of my own initially atheist (or possibly agnostic) grounding in academics, rationality, empiricism, the scientific method, etc. that now, as a believer (and an evangelical at that!), I have, well, maybe not a "unique" perspective, but certainly a more "well-rounded" one than someone who was either raised in a faith-based home (and thus "indoctrinated" (a word I abhor) at an early age) - and who therefore may be "suspicious" of science or hostile to it - or someone who was raised in a rabidly atheist, rational household, who may therefore consider faith and God so much "hooey" or may be hostile toward it.

I am equally grounded in "both worlds": my knowledge of science, rationality, etc. is as deep as my knowledge of the Bible, Christianity, etc., and I continue to read both science- and other "rational"-based books and articles, and the Bible and faith-based books and articles.

This is why I find people like you and Arteum so maddening.  Not because you maintain an atheist stance - or are even hostile to faith and God.  Rather, it is because, for all your talk of logic, rationality, etc., you show absolutely no interest - even an intellectual interest - in the subject.  How rational or logical is that?

You, Arteum and others will accuse faith-based people of having "flawed brains," of not being able to "think freely," of being "stupid" or "irrational" or "scientific ignoramuses" or what have you.  Yet many Christians - possibly even most (though obviously not all) - have a far greater interest in, tolerance for, even knowledge of science, etc. than atheists like you have of faith, God, religion, whatever - again, even simply from an "intellectually curious" point of view.

The "Judeo-Christian construct" in which I believe has far more room for "secular" concepts and beliefs such as science, psychology, philosophy, etc. than your suuposedly "greater" world of logic and reason has for faith, God and religion.

It is the complete lack of intellectual curiosity coming from the atheists here that I find...illogical.

Finally, you are right (for the most part) about Roman Catholicism being a "one-way ticket out of" faith and God.  And I am truly sorry you were subjected to that, and that it affected you the way it obviously has.  However, your hostility is just as obviously an "over-reaction" and "over-compensation" that results from your anger and resentment.

I believe that, over time, the very intense level of your hostility will diminish - though it may never fully disappear.  And although it may be too much to hope that your hostility, anger and resentment will subside enough for you to reconsider your spiritual beliefs and path, as the saying goes, "God works in mysterious ways."  In this regard, although I know it will mean little or nothing to you (now), I will pray for you - since that is all I can offer you right now in the face of your hostility.

Peace.

Edited by maani

Atheists and the believers will always be at odds- neither can prove (sorry about the use of this word and the idea of rational logic implied with it) they are right, but both are firm in what they conceptualise to be right. Non-believers shut their ears to the idea of faith and the believers, in turn, ignore logic. But I must point out that history paints a very shameful image of the faithful. Most people would like to believe that there is higher order in the chaos that surrounds us, even if they say they don't believe. The concept of discovering god may even be what has continually pushed our need to explore new worlds (I hope the universe is ready for our next step).

I for one am happy in my belief in humankind- we are the masters of our own destiny and I just hope that we don't let me down.

BaldJean:

Thank you for your kind words.  Although I know something of the Gaia belief system, I admit to not being as knowledgeable about it as about other beliefs, including, among others, the Native American Great Spirit belief - with which I believe the Gaia belief has much in common - and the Australian aboriginal Dreamtime belief.

Since I am always interested in broadening my knowledge of spiritual belief systems, perhaps you could recommend one or two books that would give me a fairly solid, if basic, grounding in your belief system.  I would really appreciate that.

Peace!

Tony R wrote: "my preferred choice of belief" Religion as fashion and lifestyle choice BJ? I dont suppose you want to elaborate on why you choose to worship the Ancient Goddess Of The Earth? I have to make the observation that it does seem rather conveniently aligned with your sexuality.Are your hormones not interfering with your braincells?

how else would you like me to put it? religion definitely IS a lifestyle choice. if my religion does not reflect somewhere in my lifestyle, it is hollow. mere lip service. that's not how I think of religion

James Lee wrote: ...most atheists reject the possibility of god's existence out of hand but accept buttloads of hearsay when it comes to scientific theories

You are right. Theories should be treated as theories. One shouldn't start to believe in them, until they are scientifically proven true completely. But I think it's just too tempting to many...

Eetu Pellonpää wrote: Stephen Hawking's crusade towards god is silly also. But he has suffered so much pain in his life, that it's easy to understand why he doesn't believe in all-loving god.

Stephen Hawking believes in God and but isn't Christian.

Just thought I would make that point.It shows that clear thinkers can have warped perception.

Edited by Tony R

Tony R wrote: Stephen Hawking believes in God and is a Christian. Just thought I would make that point.It shows that clear thinkers can have warped perception.

Since when?

When he wrote his best-seller "Brief History of Time" (not entirely sure if that is the name in English), he surely DID NOT believe in God and surely WAS NOT a Christian.

Edited by Logos

Logos wrote: Tony R wrote: Stephen Hawking believes in God and is a Christian. Just thought I would make that point.It shows that clear thinkers can have warped perception. Since when? When he wrote his best-seller "Brief History of Time" (not entirely sure if that is the name in English), he surely DID NOT believe in God and surely WAS NOT a Christian.

Have you read it????
 

BaldJean wrote: Snow Dog wrote: This thread finally proves that Baldjean is a fruitcake.......mind you, I like fruitcake was that proof really necessary?

Good answer Baldjean!

Eetu Pellonpää wrote: James Lee wrote: ...most atheists reject the possibility of god's existence out of hand but accept buttloads of hearsay when it comes to scientific theories You are right. Theories should be treated as theories. One shouldn't start to believe in them, until they are scientifically proven true completely. But I think it's just too tempting to many...