Is ELP against christianity

Arteum:

It is almost impossible to know where to begin.  Although I know that you have little or no interest in actually learning anything - despite the "greater world" of "logic" and "science" that you inhabit - I will nevertheless humor you by responding.

"Poor, poor Maani. Is this all you are able to say? After direct, completely devastating arguments written by me and the others, (without, by the way, any reference to the Bible) you are only able to write a few feeble, vague sentenences about "lack of citations" in your defense? Why not admit you have lost?"

Hmmm...devastating arguments?  Really?  I saw no devastating arguments.  Did anyone else here see "devastating" arguments?  Even those of you who are atheists and may generally agree with Arteum?  I'd be happy to be shown what these supposedly "devastating" arguments were.  Rather, what I saw were positions taken on various issues and topics, with little or no actual support for them other than a few quotes from one author.  Arteum - did you ever take forensic debate in high school or college?  If you did, you have clearly forgotten everything you knew.  You have not been able to make one single cogent argument based on anything even resembling the degree of "logic" and "rationality" that you claim to have.  Not only have I not "lost," but I dare say there are more "ticks" in my column than in yours - and that even many of your supporters would be hard-pressed to disagree.

"Aaah, I forgot. Your "inner happiness" depends on that. It's easier to continue deluding yourself and others than to face the arguments (which again have nothing to do with the Bible and state the obvious Christian doctrine). Oh, and your livelihood depends on the number of believers you recruit. Don't you live (at least partially) on the money of the poor brainwashed people?"

No, my inner happiness (actually, the phrase is "inner peace" - or haven't you been paying attention?...) depends entirely on my personal relationship with the God I believe in.  It does not depend on anything "temporal" or "worldly" at all.  However, my ability to engage in reasoned debate (which you have thus far failed to do) is entirely a product of my rational, academic, scientific upbringing (or haven't you been paying attention?...).  As noted previously (and still ignored by you...), anytime you feel like a discussion or debate on any issue in almost any area of science, psychology, or any other "secular" concept, just let me know.

As for my "livelihood," I take no money for counseling, and take no donations whatsoever from anyone.  The only money I might even consider accepting would be honoraria offered for guest preaching.  But I often refuse that as well (unless it would clearly be an insult to do so).  Nor do I "recruit" anyone.  I offer the Gospel to anyone who is interested in hearing it.  If they are not, I say thank you, and move on - just as Jesus taught (or haven't you been reading the Bible you have now begun claiming to know?...).  If they are interested, I am happy to assist in Bible study, if they wish.  So no, I do not live - even "partially" - on the money of anyone I counsel, preach to, or otherwise share my faith with.  As for "poor brainwashed people," I have actually found very few.  Most range from earnest seekers with average to high intellgence, to those (like tangerine62) who had a truly bad experience which turned them off to the Church (the organized, mainstream church), but still feel that the "basics" of their faith are solid, and are looking for someone who has a less "rigid" or "doctrinaire" understanding of Jesus and His ministry.

Even if we needed the Bible ... Are you so naive to claim that it is an accurate, authoritative document? Bible is known to have hundreds of inaccuracies, contain hundreds of contradictions (which in many cases show the God unequivocally in a light in which you would't like your congregation to see him) and list thousands of vague statements that may be interpreted with a sway +/- 100%!? Don't you know that even Devil can interpret the Bible in its own favour!? And this is the book you base your fantasies on? Shame on you, Mr-Once-Aspiring-Physicist.

"Known?"  By whom?  As usual, you fail to offer any sources whatsoever.  Not exactly a prime example of "logic," "forensic debate" or the "scientific method."

"Vague statements?"  You clearly do not understand that there are, in fact, three types of Scripture - direct, interpretive and allegorical - and that even an "average" Christian who "knows" the Bible can point out which is which.  That you do not know or understand this very basic aspect of Scripture says volumes about your newly claimed knowledge of the Bible...

As for the devil (small "d"; one only capitalizes the "S" in "Satan" because that is a given name rather than a "nickname"...or haven't you been reading the Bible you now claim to know so much about?...) "quoting Scripture," yes, this is true.  The devil can quote Scripture to serve his own ends.  (In this regard, you may want to read Matthew 4:1-11 to see how Jesus deals with Satan's quoting of Scripture).  Indeed, that is why Christians are admonished to know the Scriptures as well as possible: so that Satan can never "twist" it for his own ends and thus lead them the wrong way.

By the way, I was never an aspiring physicist.  Simply because I took a few courses with Michio and have read more books on physics than you have does not mean I had any interest in being a physicist - any more than reading all the books I have read on naturalism makes me want to go to Africa to study lions, or all the books I've read on anthropology make me want to go and study the Bushmen of Africa, or all the books I've read on metaphysics make me...well, you get the idea, I'm sure...

Don't even start me on the Bible.  I and my friends, when we were younger, took some pains to see that it is a total bunk. And, believe me, we were and are pretty smart. At least we were able to go through the challenges of science which turned out an insurmountable obstacle for you.

I would never "get you started" on the Bible since you clearly have never read it, or read it so long ago that you remember little or nothing, or read it and understood almost nothing, or read it with the kind of hostile attitude you display here.

You, "pretty smart?"  You certainly could have fooled me, because you haven't displayed that here.  What you have displayed is a propensity for ignorance (make that "willful" ignorance); unsubstantiated and unsupported claims and statements; and an almost inexhaustible supply of vituperation, invective, vitriol, hostility, anger, fear, insult and personal attack.

Finally, what "challenges of science" did you go through that I found to be "an insurmountable obstacle" for me?  As far as I can tell (and as I've stated pretty much ad nauseam by this point, since you continue to ignore my original statements), I am far better read in the very sciences you claim to know than you are; I have as great or greater an understanding of them than you do; and my debate skills are so far beyond yours that there really is no...debate here.

When you learn how to engage in a reasoned, rational debate - including, among other things, supporting your claims and statements with citations or other support, and refraining from vituperation, hostility and insults - then perhaps this discussion might actually go somewhere.

Until then, you are free to continue your pseudo-intellectual mental masturbation and name-calling.  But don't be surprised if I choose not to respond.

Peace.

Why in hell atheist try to convince Christians and Christians try to convince atheists?

Live in peace with your convcictions but don't bother the rest of us.

Iván

dropForge wrote: Arteum wrote: Comedian? I don't care if loonies call me comedian. But I know that all the intellectual world laughs at and pities these loonies. I don't care if pseudo-intellectuals call me a loony! You pity me? Why, thanks, you're so generous. So where will the poor child go? Oh, s/he will go to Heaven. But you should know that already, Mr. Smarty Pants. To heaven? Oh, were you just guessing? Never mind. Why create him then? Why did your parents create you? Was it true love, or a Bacardi moment? Maybe he wants to go to hell, etc. Are you asking for yourself, now? What kind of free will are you talking about? The same kind that allows me to select two quarters, two dimes, and a nickel, insert them all into a horizontal slot, and then decide whether I'd like to have a Coke or a Dr. Pepper. I hope that answers your question sufficiently. Remember, we're on my time, now. Up to now, it's been gratis. But if we keep going, I might need you to produce your PISA or BastidCard.

Gosh. No hope for any treatment. Directly to morgue. For not to lose medications on such a lost case.

Arteum wrote: Comedian? I don't care if loonies call me comedian. But I know that all the intellectual world laughs at and pities these loonies.

I don't care if pseudo-intellectuals call me a loony!

You pity me? Why, thanks, you're so generous.

So where will the poor child go?

Oh, s/he will go to Heaven. But you should know that already, Mr. Smarty Pants.

To heaven?

Oh, were you just guessing? Never mind.

Why create him then?

Why did your parents create you? Was it true love, or a Bacardi moment?

Maybe he wants to go to hell, etc.

Are you asking for yourself, now?

What kind of free will are you talking about?

The same kind that allows me to select two quarters, two dimes, and a nickel, insert them all into a horizontal slot, and then decide whether I'd like to have a Coke or a Dr. Pepper. I hope that answers your question sufficiently. Remember, we're on my time, now. Up to now, it's been gratis. But if we keep going, I might need you to produce your PISA or BastidCard.

Hey arseum are you for real????????????????????? excuse the ridiculous long question marks.Big scientists are we!! ready to explain life and the world.Speak to me, you are a clown.In fact, as I have already stated you speak like all Satan's fools.Demons all around you arsehole boy and you probably know it.Handpicked or deluded you fit the whole package.Your ticket has been punched Satan boy.But hey, you can be saved or maybe not.I wouldn't save you.You talk so much junk I'd leave ya to him and he's waiting on you.

Wormboy wrote: However, there is the line here: "how could he lose 6 million Jews."  This is asking the question, "how could a benevolent God allow such horrors in the world?"  With my religious upbringing, I know the theological answer to this, but maybe you'll admit that it is a subtle point missed by many.

There's a practical answer, too: man possesses free will. And often enough, as a result of this free will, some men believe themselves to be gods who are able to "pass judgment" on others. Therein lies the problem.