Is ELP against christianity

Prog1611 wrote: I have been listening to Prog since I was 13. A born-again, Bible believing Christian since 28. I have been saved for nearly 20 years, am currently a member of an old time Baptist church, have read the KJV 1611 Bible from cover to cover more times then I remember and have preached the Word 100's of times from pulpits, on street corners, in rescue missions, care homes and more places that I can remember. Though i have been Born again, and much of my life has changed and most of my old sins have passed away, there remains some things that have not. i still surf, enjoy an occasional cold beer and I still love Prog! many of my brethren are apalled or even offended that i still listen to the music of the world, but God knows my heart, I love Prog.. Now, to the issue at hand, is ELP against christianity? Or are ELP against Christ?   First of all, The Bible states " Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is anti-Christ, that denieth both the Father and the Son....1 John 2:22        According to the Bible, any man that denys the Diety of the man Christ is a liar and is anti-Christ and for that one could say that Greg Lake (if he be the writing of those lyrics is certainly anti-Christ) as with so many other artist. Christ said "  He that is not with me is against me"..Matt. 12:30  This is the "narrow minded"  doctrine of the Christian faith that so many despise and I believe..  But the second point to be made is the fact that many of these men are not so much against Christ as they are against the hypocrisy of what has become know as "Christianity" We all can see how the professed churches of  our day have become sepulchres of Hypocrisy and the life of the religion, it;s buildings and it's assests is of far more impotance then the life of a soul, and I often find this attitude against the churches Hypocrisy prevalent is music. And to this I agree. A classic example of this is the song "Wind up" from Aqualung. Anderson slams the Bishops and their  hypocrisys while all the while crying out "He is not the kind you have to wind up on Sunday!" I must stop. Against Christ? It is to their shame.. Against the hypocrisy of religion? I say AMEN.....

I, an atheist, find myself in 100% agreement with you.  I have a deep respect for the teachings of Christ, and those who follow them.  I also see a ton of hypocrisy, and I think most who are railing against "religion" are actually railing against the rampant hypocrisy of much modern organized religion. 

However, there is the line here: "how could he lose 6 million Jews."  This is asking the question, "how could a benevolent God allow such horrors in the world?"  With my religious upbringing, I know the theological answer to this, but maybe you'll admit that it is a subtle point missed by many.  Regardless, this line seems like an indictment of a "benevolent God," and not an indictment of religions.  So I suspect that Lake was actually expressing an anti-Christian sentiment.  But then I know nothing of Lake personally.

Likewise, much of the rest of the song seems to be preaching for enlightment to come from within.  This certainly seems to be anti-organized religion, and promoting self-exploration.  Sort of the Siddhartha message, and this sounds like Buddhism to me, though you can certainly find non-Buddhists preaching the same thing.
 

Arteum wrote: AtomHeartMother wrote: Find me where it sais that "children born with brain dissorders, kids with misfortune to die before they can read will go to hell." Bible says that people who do not believe in Jesus will go to hell. Tell me wether a kid who dies just after his birth believes in Jesus. Tell me if the wretched cretin with a damaged brain who has no ability even to think he needs to eat [he would die of starvation if nurses did not feed him], tell me if he has the ability to even think of Jesus, let alone "believe in Jesus". He probably never heard of him anyway. Besides, I never really heard of Jesus or God before I was 15. If I died at 14, would I be to blame?

The newborn infant who dies will not automatically "go to hell."

The "wretched cretin" with brain damage will not "go to hell."

If you had never heard of Christ, and had died at the age of 14, you would not have "gone to hell."

Wow, you're aren't familiar with the facts, Jack! And you are wholly unfamiliar with the concept of mercy. Please, do us all a favor and zip it. Everyone thinks you're a comedian, anyway.

 

Arteum wrote: You mean you've never heard of kids born only with a half of the brain, unable even to go pee by themselves? Very kind and loving God created them and then will send them to hell.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

Mr. Artfarteum, that is hands down one of the DUMBEST things I have ever read! Are you sure you're 26 years of age? This looks more like something a sixteen year-old would write. Imagine that, a handicapped child born only to be automatically "sent to hell" by the Creator. Stop sniffing the PVC glue, already!

Arteum wrote: Enough. You are not smart enough to talk about such subjects.

And you intend to have us all believe that you have a genius IQ or something? I swear, man, you crack me up. 

AtomHeartMother wrote: You have a preety overactive imagination if you expect me to believe that you never heard of God untill you were 15 and you live in the US. I don't give a damn what Maugham's argues. He sais we are so "innocent, weak and powerless", well it is easier than you think it is to follow God. Our temptations arn't that hard to resist. God isn't "furious" with those who don't believe in him, He loves everyone. I would praise someone who created me and gave me the right to choose eternal happiness, you would think everyone would. As for people being "imperfect" they are not born that way, they grew up that way and made bad choices along the way, if you were to argue that by saying, "What if their parents made them have a bad life, make bad decisions." then I would say that the power of prayer is strong and nothing in the world can stop someone from praying, unless you can read minds. Because people through time have grown away from God, that led to countries not worshiping him and that happend for a reason according to God.

You are dealing with a prize dick here in Mr.Artemus or a prize arsehole.He doesn't believe, which is his choice, but his smart hole retorts are entirely meaningless.Guys like him are ten a penny.You either have faith or don't.Whether born with it or God induced.This guy is a codpiece of the highest magnitude.Clever clods like him captained the Beagle or believed We crawled out of the sea or there was a massive bing bang in his head and then mankind was here??????????????????  He who believes in me though he may die will one day be in heaven with me.

 

Edited by Fragile

AtomHeartMother wrote: You have a preety overactive imagination if you expect me to believe that you never heard of God untill you were 15 and you live in the US. I don't give a damn what Maugham's argues. He sais we are so "innocent, weak and powerless", well it is easier than you think it is to follow God. Our temptations arn't that hard to resist. God isn't "furious" with those who don't believe in him, He loves everyone. I would praise someone who created me and gave me the right to choose eternal happiness, you would think everyone would. As for people being "imperfect" they are not born that way, they grew up that way and made bad choices along the way, if you were to argue that by saying, "What if their parents made them have a bad life, make bad decisions." then I would say that the power of prayer is strong and nothing in the world can stop someone from praying, unless you can read minds. Because people through time have grown away from God, that led to countries not worshiping him and that happend for a reason according to God.

One more Mr Smart

You have a preety overactive imagination if you expect me to believe that you never heard of God untill you were 15 and you live in the US.

Who told you I lived in Jesusland when I was 15, or later or earlier? The fact is I live in US now, and I am 26 right now. And even if I spent my childhod in US (God forbid!) and must have heard about the Christian God, there are millions and perhaps billions of kids in the world who never heard of Jesus before they were certain age. And there are millions of those who died before they had ANY chance to hear about him.

The rest you write may well be taken from "Watchtower". Typical brainwash in its naivest ppossible form. Should I care to tear your arguments to pieces? OK, just a random few.

God isn't "furious" with those who don't believe in him, He loves everyone.

Yeah, he loves you if you follow the "contract". Otherwise he sends you to hell without the to possibility to return from there. I wish your mother loved you like that.

I would praise someone who created me and gave me the right to choose eternal happiness, you would think everyone would.

How do you know the "eternal happiness" exists? Have you seen it? You believe in fairytales? And maybe you will not like it, eh? And you automatically lavish in your "praise" wven without checking the place of your eternal residence?! I do not praise my parents for creating me. Why would I praise God? And actually this is not a question even. It's clear that the brainwashed person would praise anything he is told to, even God. The question is why the deuce God needs that praise?

As for people being "imperfect" they are not born that way, they grew up that way and made bad choices along the way,

You mean you've never heard of kids born only with a half of the brain, unable even to go pee by themselves? Very kind and loving God created them and then will send them to hell. Besides, I would like to see you born somewhere in Africa in the middle of the desert, without food and water, with your mother having 10 such other urchins, and dying before even learning to speak of malnutrition? Can you have a choice not to go to hell this way? Your church probably evades such questions. It assumes there is a Wal-Mart and a church everywhere on earth. And every born kid is born in a happy, well-to-do Christian family.

Enough. You are not smart enough to talk about such subjects. 

Losendos wrote: [QUOTE=Arteum] -- Maugham writes that the best, noblest people whom he knew in his life (and he knew thousands and thousands of people) were embarassed and ashamed to bask in (even well deserved) praise. Yet God longs for praise and adulation. Such a behavior is considered vain and silly by the best human philosophers. Worshipping God is good for the worshipper not God. It gets rid of the very egocentricities Maugham is complaining about -- Then, God created people weak and powerless, prone to the "temptations" of life. And then God imposes such a severe punishment on such innocent subjects! Who is more to blame -- the people born weak and powerless, or the God himself who has botched up the job creating such imperfect people and then gleeing while seeing them burn in hell? But connected to God they are not weak and powerless

OK, you were smarter than the previous believer. He tried to parry only one argument, and you had enough mental faculties to try to parry two of them.

Worshipping God is good for the worshipper not God. It gets rid of the very egocentricities Maugham is complaining about

So, if it is good for the person only, why does God care about it? Or you rather mean that God does NOT need love and adoration -- he deceives people by telling them he needs love and adoration whereas it is people who need to show it? I thought that the Christian God was not suppose to be such a cheat.

If my doctor tells me to take pills and I don't take them why would my doctor send me to hell for that?

But connected to God they are not weak and powerless

That sound like a typical phrase you were brainwashed with. A human is not powerless because he does not know God. Human is powerless because he is just born stupid and subject to every opportunity of pleasure. Even when "connected to God" humans violate God's rules every day many many times (as much as they try not to do it!). Even when no-longer-weak-because-connected-to-God people are still weak? And who's to blame for this?

Suppose you created a robot and ask him to sweep your floor. Now, you created your robot in such a way that he can hardly move, let alone sweep your floor. You see that the robot cannot sweep the floor, you curse him and throw him into fire. Who's more to blame for the floor not being swept -- robot, or you, the creator?

Edited by Arteum

[QUOTE=Arteum]

-- Maugham writes that the best, noblest people whom he knew in his life (and he knew thousands and thousands of people) were embarassed and ashamed to bask in (even well deserved) praise. Yet God longs for praise and adulation. Such a behavior is considered vain and silly by the best human philosophers.

Worshipping God is good for the worshipper not God. It gets rid of the very egocentricities Maugham is complaining about

-- Then, God created people weak and powerless, prone to the "temptations" of life. And then God imposes such a severe punishment on such innocent subjects! Who is more to blame -- the people born weak and powerless, or the God himself who has botched up the job creating such imperfect people and then gleeing while seeing them burn in hell?

But connected to God they are not weak and powerless

W. Somerset Maugham, one of the brightest intellectual writers in England, discarded religion for many reasons including those that the Christian God is rash, vain and evil.

Assuming that the Christian God exists [to show how evil he is]:

-- Maugham writes that the best, noblest people whom he knew in his life (and he knew thousands and thousands of people) were embarassed and ashamed to bask in (even well deserved) praise. Yet God longs for praise and adulation. Such a behavior is considered vain and silly by the best human philosophers.

-- Then, God created people weak and powerless, prone to the "temptations" of life. And then God imposes such a severe punishment on such innocent subjects! Who is more to blame -- the people born weak and powerless, or the God himself who has botched up the job creating such imperfect people and then gleeing while seeing them burn in hell?

-- Most people have the ability to forgive. They forgive regardless of the fact whether their "offenders" believe in them or not. I may forgive people irrespective of whether they love me or not. Whether their love is "free" or not "free". Whether they believe in me or not. But God seems to be incapable of such a simple forgiveness.

-- Further, Maugham says that the best, noblest, most talented people he knew never cared if somebody "believed" in them. These illustrous personalities were rather embarassed when their admirers dropped on the knees before them. Yet God needs people to "believe" in him. As if he needed the assurance in his existence. Otherwise, he promises eternal punishment, and in this respect acts much much more cruelly than the Spanish Inquisition.

-- One of the other conclusions of Maugham is that the Christian God is cruel and evil. Just as I noted in the previous paragraph, he is furious with people who do not "believe" in him and condemns them for eternal tortures. Besides, in order for people to believe in him they 1) must be born in the right place [and this means that God almost automatically condemns to hell people from non-Christian countries] 2) must be able to see, hear, think and read ... Otherwise you can never learn about Jesus and Ko and "believe" in them. So, for example, all the children born with brain disorders and cannot think properly (and there are millions of these in the world) will burn in hell! Even kids who had the misfortune to die before they were able to read or think will burn in hell as they have not believed in Jusus. Children born to unchristian parents and living in remote places will never even have the chance to choose to believe in God. Is not God evil?

Even accepting that the Christian God exists, would you want to worship such a cruel and illogical monster? 

Edited by Arteum

To Atreum and to everyone else:

 

It’s obviously wrong to call all believers retards, even if majority of them are poorly educated and not very smart. I can understand you anger but try and be rational till the end. Even among the scientific community and especially among physicists there are strong believers. Not every man will want to live purely following the logic, criticism and common sense. As you also said people are week and some chooses self deception as a way of overcoming the difficulties. Surely most of intelligent Christians should be able to realize what is the Christianity (religion) or where it comes from. You don’t really need a degree in Physics or full wall of math awards to understand the fairy tale about a Judo-Christian God mixed with the infantile philosophy of Plato. The tool that Jew priest and then Romans and than Christian church used to spread the fear and control the masses. Importantly they also provided the answers about everything what people needed to know. Including how everything worked and how to live a life. In this light it seems ridiculous anachronism that theistic religions still exist (although the shadow of what it was, brrr) in our time of science and greater understanding of the universe. That is what makes people like Atreum and myself arrogant and sometime furious.

 

There are indeed many intellectuals in Russia, but don’t forget Russia is a country of Orthodox Christianity one of the most fundamentalist direction in Christianity, they even still keep an old (wrong) calendar up to know and there are an awful lot of Christians.

 

 

To maani:

 

1. You should not bring the excerpt from Einstein in you post, because in that context it gives a falls impression of Einstein believing the God. While this is exactly contrary to what he says. The faith he is talking about is not the faith of god but the science, art and creativity, religion he is talking about is not theistic but contrary, godless spirituality. You should know this very well, because it’s written right next to that except (“Science and Religion” - Albert Einstein). Another excerpt from him:

 

“When one views the matter historically, one is inclined to look upon science and religion as irreconcilable antagonists, and for a very obvious reason. The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social or moral religion.” - Cosmic Religious Feeling

 

Unfortunately the idea that Einstein believed in God is so wide spread, because of misunderstanding and by deliberate efforts of some to confuse people, that you encounter it everywhere. No pun intended.

 

2. Free will was given to be able to keep people responsible for their action and to punish. And hey what kind of choice is this; love Him or burn in hell. Is he the kind one who forces us to love him. “If I love you its nothing of you busyness” - Nietzsche's answer (my poor translation).

 

3. Yes it is not good to achieve “inner peace” or to get over the fear of death or stresses of life through the religion of lie and fails Gods. Because once you lie to yourself in a matter of this scale you are condemned to live lie in your entire life, you will believe anything and die for it happily and kill for it. Since once you abandon reason you are not a man of reason, homo sapience but a blind slave and are easily manipulated. Religion is a disease of illusion, like a psychopath living in his faeces may fill comfortable from it but he is simply mentally sick not enlightened.

 

4. Finally, even if there is a Christian God (lets “entertain the idea”) you are going to burn in hell, if only because you are vain (IMHO) and so your valuable life will be totally wasted anyway. Well, this if you were indeed as gifted as you said, which I don’t doubt.

 

I extensively used MS Word spell-check, so I hope you find my spelling at least as accurate as my arguments.

Edited by sstarless

JrKASperov wrote: You were not using religion's unlogical arguments, you were using your own wrong assumptions. I don't know God's WHOLE plan, that's why I can't answer why he created a being that would choose to become evil (Satan and man both qualify). I know, or can get to know, what He wants with me. That is my role in His plan. Do I know His plan? NO Do I know what He wants of me? YES. Simply. Why don't YOU think of that in your 'superior' plan of reasoning and logic? Again, not knowing God as a whole does not mean I can't get to know what is needed to know. This is why I questioned and attacked your idea of reason and logic; they are so full of holes. I believe what I believe because I have tasted the fruit, the fruit of His Spirit. You are right in questioning the truth and reliability of such a spiritual encounter! And Yahshua Himself taught to be aware. The answer, however, is in the Holy Spirit. A Divine Tool given to us to get to know the truth. In it's experience, you KNOW it is really the Truth. But this is what Maani stated when he said you can't teach a nonbeliever to believe, he has to experience it for himself. How can I possibly convey the power of this experience to you so that you believe that what I experienced let me know it was the Truth? I can't. I can just hope you trust in my words, because unlike you accuse 'christians', we do think and we do doubt and we do question. Finally: You trust something which has all the rights and capabilities to change the rules of the game and screw you over any moment he likes? Why do YOU trust ANYONE in this regard? Or is your life as void that you trust no-one?

If I could dissect your brain and look inside, I would smell "Tide", I am sure.

You write:

"I know, or can get to know, what He wants with me ... Do I know what He wants of me? YES. Simply."

How do you know what he wants with you? Somebody just told you? You read it in a book? You invented it yourself? How do you know WHICH part of God or WHICH part of his plan is understandable and trustworthy and which is not? 

Again, not knowing God as a whole does not mean I can't get to know what is needed to know.

How do you know what is needed to know? How do you know where the demarcation line between what you need to know and what you don't need to know lies?

"How can I possibly convey the power of this experience to you so that you believe that what I experienced let me know it was the Truth? I can't."

Just as a looney in a mental home cannot convince me that elephants are red and they can fly. You must become a loony yourself to "experience" the elephant airshows.

"Why do YOU trust ANYONE in this regard? Or is your life as void that you trust no-one?"

No, I don't trust anyone. I don't even know what trust is. There is no such thing, just as there is no good and no evil. I act to the best of my abilities. If it appears to you or to me that I trust something or somebody, it is because I take risk and I cannot afford not to take it. When I lend somebody my money, I take a risk. And I must do it because otherwise I will be left without friends. And I need friends to help me with something else. Life is a struggle for survival. And it's easier to survive if you have friends (cooperate with somebody). That's the clue to the whole political history of humankind. Read school text books. How do you know that if I don't trust anyone that my life is "void"? Because your mamma told you so? Because it is written in the only book you've read in your life?

Without being attached to any strings with which the clever people in the government control me (like faith and religion), I have no bounds and limits to my thoughts. I look at the world open-mindedly. I submit to no laws except those that givern my physical existence (gravitation, quantum mechanics, ...) and the laws of the state in which I live (taxation, civility, criminal punishment etc) [if I don't regard the latter, there will be a threat to my physical existence or well-being too] In all other respects I am free. Whereas you, Maani and the rest of the multi-million crew are just small puppets by means of whose shortsightedness and stupidity some smart people live in luxury, comfort and the feeling of self-importance. Where do you think the heaps of money come from on which the Pope, the bishops, and the rest of the thousands and thousands of clergy live? Who do you think licks the rumps of your holy prists if not you? Religion has been the best seller since the time out of mind.

Edited by Arteum