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James Lee
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Topic: Do Animals have Souls? Posted: April 23 2005 at 11:22 |
I just read an odd item about Gorillas being kept Kosher for Passover at an Israeli zoo. It made me think that it's either a lighthearted gesture or an acknowledgement that animals have souls that could benefit from purification. Christian opinion is pretty diverse, and I have no clue what Allah had to say on the matter, but I know most Eastern religions regard animals as possessing a soul.
So what do you think? Do animals have an immortal spirit or not (or do you not believe in souls for any creature)?
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 11:38 |
i beleive once our carnate lives are over we all become one soul that is god(nature) and that we then become aware of everything in the world taking place but we are no longer aware of ourselves as an individual entity nor do we remember our time on the planet....goood post
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maani
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 11:55 |
It all depends, of course, on your definition of "soul." I believe that animals (at least some, if not all) have a much higher form of "consciousness" than we generally believe or give them credit for. Keep in mind that "consciousness" and "self-consciousness" are two different things. I doubt that any animal - with the possible exception of some simians - have any real form of "self-consciousness." However, this does not mean that they are not "conscious" in a much more profound sense than we accept. In this regard, I do believe that animals (again, at least some, if not all) feel pain, as well as various levels of grief, joy, and other "human" feelings.
I'm pretty sure it was Thoreau who said (and I paraphrase here): "The degree to which a society can said to be 'civilized' can be determined by how it treats its animals." I have always agreed with this. Still do.
Peace.
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 12:15 |
i beleive that was thoreau ,one of my faves.....he also said , in walden i think both quotes lie,"that he hoped one day man would come to the point where we realized survival on animals was unneccessary and undesirable" or something to that effect anyway....im not a vegetarian(neither was he, the hypocrite...lol) but i do see some point in his comments on the subject, yet i believe too much may be made of animal rights ... i mean, after all, as maynard tries to point out in "disgustipating" on the undertow album, vegetables are living,breathing, carbon based organisms and no one seems concerned with their rights...."this is necessary...life feeds on life"....and yet no one heeds the "cries of the carrots"
Edited by hopelevre
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gdub411
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 12:18 |
Animals were meant to be eaten....yummy!
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maani
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 12:25 |
hopelevre:
"The cries of the carrots?" What would Maynard do, have us all die of starvation? After all, we have to eat something.
As an aside (and not to start a theological discussion here), if you read the Book of Genesis carefully, you will find that humankind was originally vegetarian. It was not until Adam and Eve sinned and "knew they were naked" that God permitted the killing of an animal to provide them clothes. Only after that were they permitted to eat the animals they killed. (This actually comports closely with Native American beliefs and practices, in which the killing of an animal is done solely for the good of the tribe, and all parts of the animal are used: its skin for clothes, its flesh for meat, its bones for various useful utensils, etc.)
Again, I am not debating the truth or falsity of the Adam and Eve story, or the factualness of the Bible in general. I am simply stating what it says.
Peace.
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 12:43 |
i agree with the views of the native americans in this reegard and many others manni...i think they developed the perfect mode of existence until we ruined it for them...what maynard is sayign there manni is that it is silly for these "vegetarians" and teh animal activists to be running around acting the way they do...he isnt saying dont eat vegetables...he's saying eat vegetables and meat neither deserves more rights and it is humankind's ego that says since animals appear more like us than vegetables they deserve more compassion ....he is being very sarcastic you see what im saying?...its like hes saying to these extremists" what you are doing would be akin to deciding not to eat vegetables anymore"...the concept of carrots "crying" on harvest day at recognition of the impending holocaust is a very funny idea and that is the point, so is vegetarianism
Edited by hopelevre
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nacho
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 13:12 |
I'm not sure about the soul thing (my vote went for the "Does anyone" option).
Regarding human and animal differences: well, there's no doubt that humans are animals, and to date the only real difference between us and the rest of them is articulate language. All the rest are quantitative differences (i.e. more intelligence, more self consciousness...)
I totally agree on the view that the way we behave with other animals is a measure of the degree of civilization... I however like to eat animals...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 15:58 |
A t least according to the former Pope John Paul II, animals do have soul, that should be enough for any Catholic to believe it, but I always like to search more:
Etymologically, the Latin, Italian and Spanish word for soul is ANIMA, this also means motion ANIMADO (Moved by an anima or soul), in other words any being that moves and thinks by itself has a soul.
Just by observation, an animal like a dog or a cat gives unconditional love to his master, feels sad whe you're sad and happy when his master is happy, sometimes can risk their own lives to save his owner, so it has to have a soul.
Iván
Edited by ivan_2068
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Dragon Phoenix
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 16:05 |
I doubt whether humans have souls, but if we have, then certainly animals like primates, cats, dogs and pigs as well!
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mirco
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 16:07 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
A t least according to the former Pope John Paul II, animals do have soul, that should be enough for any Catholic to believe it, but I always like to search more:
Etymologically, the Latin, Italian and Spanish word for soul is ANIMA, this also means motion ANIMADO (Moved by an anima or soul), in other words any being that moves and thinks by itself has a soul.
Just by observation, an animal like a dog or a cat gives unconditional love to his master, feels sad whe you're sad and happy when his master is happy, sometimes can risk their own lives to save his owner, so it has to have a soul.
Iván |
Well, my theological knowledge stopped at the time of my first comunion, but I vaguely remember that a difference between us and "inferior animals" was the presence of soul... This is only academic, by the way. I cannot state that we humans are better than any other species, so I think that either we all have soul or no one has it.
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Please forgive me for my crappy english!
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Reed Lover
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 17:06 |
Anyone who believes animals have souls is a berk in my opinion.
Humans dont have souls,so why should animals? Simple really!
It makes me laugh that Christians believe they can go to heaven but animals can't.The all-for-one and one-for-all logic doesnt come into it in this ridiculous theology.Something either exists or it doesnt and seeing as we are are evolved from animals then if you believe humans have a soul then animals must too! It also prevents heaven from being populated by geriatrics...think about that dilemna.
The whole thing is daft.A way to get round ugly bastards from being ugly for eternity The body dies (thank f**k I hear 1 billion plain Janes mutter) but the beautiful pure soul lives on!
This something either exists or it doesnt applies to ghosts too!
Either they exist and everyone can see the scary buggers or they dont.These deluded few who claim to have the "power" or "facility" to see them should be tied up together and made to sit in a darkened room until one appears.That would sort the madmen out from the shamen.
Dont start me on vegetarians......
Edited by Reed Lover
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Kaztor
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 17:22 |
I'm sure they have. I've got 2 cats, one of which greets me when he comes in (not for food) and when I start to whistle he attends me he doesn't like it by walking towards me and holding one foot against my knee.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 20:45 |
Mirco wrote:
Well, my theological knowledge stopped at the time of my first comunion, but I vaguely remember that a difference between us and "inferior animals" was the presence of soul |
I thought the same Mirco, specially because of Saint Tomas de Aquino readings, but in 1990, the Pope (who according to Catholics is not fallible in matters of faith) said :
An important affirmation of John Paul II has raised a great clamour all round the world
The Pope Has Said: "Animals Too Have Souls, Just Like Men"
During a public audience the Holy Father affirmed that the animals, like men, were given the 'breath of life' by God. The Vatican squarely confronted this concept for the first time. At the Pope's statement, Monsignor Canciani, who welcome dogs and cats into his Church in Rome, said he had "experienced a great joy. Now I sincerely hope that other priests will follow my example.." |
Iván
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mirco
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 20:49 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
Mirco wrote:
Well, my theological knowledge stopped at the time of my first comunion, but I vaguely remember that a difference between us and "inferior animals" was the presence of soul |
I thought the same Mirco, specially because of Saint Tomas de Aquino readings, but in 1990, the Pope (who according to Catholics is not fallible in matters of faith) said :
An important affirmation of John Paul II has raised a great clamour all round the world
The Pope Has Said: "Animals Too Have Souls, Just Like Men"
During a public audience the Holy Father affirmed that the animals, like men, were given the 'breath of life' by God. The Vatican squarely confronted this concept for the first time. At the Pope's statement, Monsignor Canciani, who welcome dogs and cats into his Church in Rome, said he had "experienced a great joy. Now I sincerely hope that other priests will follow my example.." |
Iván
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Holy cow!!!
(Well, Ivan, I'm not a very religious person, I hope i'n not offend you if you are religious)...
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Please forgive me for my crappy english!
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 20:49 |
I do master


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Reed Lover
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 20:53 |
Karnevil9 wrote:
I do master


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No K9, the Devil's got yours!!!
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 21:42 |
No offence Mirco, I'm not that religious to be honest, I believe but in a more comfortable way than expected for a real Catholic, and the fact you don't know that doesn't mean a thing, because the first time I found it by accident also. 
Iván
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Peter
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Posted: April 23 2005 at 23:39 |
PHUKTIPHANNO!
(Try it in a Scottish accent....)
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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AngelRat
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 06:52 |
They do. Especially the horses. Not only souls, but soles as well. How would they think about this question themselves?
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