Sex before marriage

maani wrote: threefates: There are over 100 specific and direct proscriptions against "sex for sex' sake" in the Scriptures - and not one supporting it.  I'm not sure you're reading the same Scriptures or practicing the same faith as I am. Peace.

Let's face it, sex for the sake of it can be fun , medicinal , healthy, and avoids a part of sex crimes (there would be even more rapes if women had not been liberated by the pill) . A good deal of this debate is about women's right to reappropriate their bodies. This goes against religion's will to use the female body other than for reproduction's needs.

This forbidding of sex before marriage is mostly about male misplaced honour and to make sure that the bride is virgin, that their kids are theirs , that their wives is a Lady (and a whore only in their bed), etc..... this debate is the first step leading to the Taliban's Burqas.

Scriptures if you choose to believe in them should be interpreted loosely and certainly not in an integrist way. Christian scriptures were written for the first time  over four centuries after JC's crucification , changed by the Vatican so many times they lost the count themselves and to fit their needs (conquering the world in god's name). I am not sure i would want to follow the philosophy of a guy who let himself crucify and ask for his torturer's forgiveness.

No personal attack , Maani. Just my personal opinion but that I wish would be more widespread, but I am not willing to make a religion of my beliefs.

Just as you always point out so well: PEACE.

Sean Trane wrote: maani wrote: threefates: There are over 100 specific and direct proscriptions against "sex for sex' sake" in the Scriptures - and not one supporting it.  I'm not sure you're reading the same Scriptures or practicing the same faith as I am. Peace. Let's face it, sex for the sake of it can be fun , medicinal , healthy, and avoids a part of sex crimes (there would be even more rapes if women had not been liberated by the pill) . A good deal of this debate is about women's right to reappropriate their bodies. This goes against religion's will to use the female body other than for reproduction's needs. This forbidding of sex before marriage is mostly about male misplaced honour and to make sure that the bride is virgin, that their kids are theirs , that their wives is a Lady (and a whore only in their bed), etc..... this debate is the first step leading to the Taliban's Burqas. Scriptures if you choose to believe in them should be interpreted loosely and certainly not in an integrist way. Christian scriptures were written for the first time  over four centuries after JC's crucification , changed by the Vatican so many times they lost the count themselves and to fit their needs (conquering the world in god's name). I am not sure i would want to follow the philosophy of a guy who let himself crucify and ask for his torturer's forgiveness. No personal attack , Maani. Just my personal opinion but that I wish would be more widespread, but I am not willing to make a religion of my beliefs. Just as you always point out so well: PEACE.

Bravo! Intelligence and actual historical knowledge is very rare and it's very gratifying to come across it.Because it is true that marriage was instigated by men as a means of controlling women,to make sure that they didn't "stray" and had sex with other men. It was a way for men to be sure that their children were their own and that they hadn't been cuckolded. In other words: Marriage was invented by men to ensure their genetic investment,pure and simple. Love had nothing to do with it,it was simply a practical and pragmatic measure to control women. It's taken on other aspects along the way,but the origins were pure fallocentric egotism and patriarchal bullying,of which all of this planet's woes can be attributed,incidentally.

And as for the christians among us: Why do you insist on making life so complicated? It's not necessary,you know. You don't need a long list of rules or thick books to tell you what's right and wrong. You only need to keep one thing in mind: Treat the people you meet on your way through life with kindness. Be nice to people. That's it. It really is that simple. If you always keep that in mind,you can't do anything that's truly wrong. Only if having lots of sex with many people hurt the people around you,is it wrong. If it doesn't,it's fine. It certainly is no business of some long dead prophet,whether his name was Jesus,Mohmmad or Buddha. It's only a matter between you and the people in your life. And please keep in mind: Just because it's in a book doesn't mean it's true. Whether the book is The Bible,The Koran or The Shining. Be critical,don't just blindly accept. If any theory or thought doesn't tally with reality,it's obviously incorrect. Saying that sex before marriage is wrong would only be correct if reality,the actual lives that actual men and women live,supported it. Well,it doesn't. It's quite the opposite,in fact. Most men and women enjoy sex. That's it. Before,during,or after marriage,in many ways and with many people. That is a fact. What Paul or any biblical author might have had to say about it,or any other issue for that matter, counts for nothing if it isn't in accordance with the way people actually live their lives. You can't create a set of rules that have nothing,or very little,with the way people actually live their lives.You can't create standards that are impossible to live up to. If people really like something and it doesn't hurt anyone,then it's not wrong. Simple as that. That's precisely what's wrong with religion,trying to impose rules and regulations on a life that naturally resists such restrictions. Let people do what ever they want,as long they don't hurt anybody. What I do with the people in my life is nobody's business as long as I don't mistreat them. Life really is that simple. Why do you treat life as if it's an obstacle course? It doesn't have to be.

threefates wrote: I agree with Sean, Pixel and James evidently... Sex has been used as a control device over women since the beginning.

How do you mean? I'm not arguing, just asking for elaboration.

Pixel pretty much sums it up above.  Sean also hits it on the head with "men's misplaced honor".  And it started right from the beginning. 

We're led to believe by the Scriptures that women suffer in childbirth due to our eternal punishment for taking the first bite of knowledge.  Now there's one hell of a guilt trip if ever there was one....

Women were considered whores if they slept with more than one man.  Men could have several wives and comcubines...

Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that women were created to be submissive to the whims of men.  After all, it was women who had that first bite of knowledge....

threefates wrote: Pixel pretty much sums it up above.  Sean also hits it on the head with "men's misplaced honor".  And it started right from the beginning.  We're led to believe by the Scriptures that women suffer in childbirth due to our eternal punishment for taking the first bite of knowledge.  Now there's one hell of a guilt trip if ever there was one.... Women were considered whores if they slept with more than one man.  Men could have several wives and comcubines... Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that women were created to be submissive to the whims of men.  After all, it was women who had that first bite of knowledge....

Actually Three Fates , before the coming of monotheism , there were many societies that were believed to be matrimonial and in some rare case, the polygamism for women existed (and still does in some tribes nowadays) in Polynesia and in Papou lands.

 I really think that this misplaced honour in most males about women (especially in the Muslim world) is because men cannot act correctly with other sibblings(this would mean that they would try to sleep with their brother's wives if they had a chance to????) . Why should the woman be covered from head to toe because she must stay modest ? Why can it not be that men restrain their impulses better (murder, violence , rape/lust and greed).

We, the men, are usually guided by our own references which is our own mothers that we idolize , idealize , cherish for the love they gave us. What do we know of the real live of our mothers outside the motherhood they provided us. if we were to know more on their outside (but well concealed) endeavours/adventures we might just be in for a shock. Most of them were hardly perfect but since it is the only mother we had , we cannot really compare.

You should also know that women are also often the keeper of the tradition. It is women who forces their little girls into excision (cutting of the clitoris and sowing of the vagina) in parts of Africa, keep the girls at home in Arabia etc... This male supremacy is also maintained by women content to behave like their mother in the very traditional role they were shown.

ThreeFates touches on an interesting issue.  One other thing that needs to be noted is that a lot of the New Testament beliefs and laws came from Paul's letters to the churches.  Paul was himself a Pharisee and it is easy to see in his writings the struggle he had of telling people the freedom and relief salvation brings and on the other hand smash people over the head with the Law of Moses.  Paul had a problem with sex and it is obvious when you read his letters.   He did not take a wife for whatever reason. In my mind the church should rethink its position on this subject with a more enlightened look of his writings. The church has adopted these feelings of Paul as their own doctrine.

Why is it that a man who gets loads of sex is a stud whilst a woman who does the same is a sl*g? Because of religion.The 3 major religions of the world seem to have taken great delight over the centuries in subjugating women.The Catholic Church venerates The Virgin Mary (against one of the Commandments as far as I can see) yet wont even consider the idea of women priests!!!

Sex is sex,lets just have loads of it as often as possible-with a few provisors:

1. If you are married only have sex with your partner-nobody forces you to get married so either make the commitment or dont marry.

2.Dont put yourself in a position where you can catch something nasty.

3.Sex should always be consensual.

4.Great sex does not have to be with another person (I like to look in the mirror)

5.If you get sent to jail,NEVER PICK THE SOAP UP OFF THE FLOOR!

6.Never listen to advice from obnoxious,smuggy Brits.