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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Will piracy kill off prog rock ?
    Posted: October 06 2014 at 12:44
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Will pay £600 for an iPhone, won't pay £5 for an album to play on it. Odd world we live in.


If the said album is the new U2... Ermm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2014 at 07:42
Will pay £600 for an iPhone, won't pay £5 for an album to play on it. Odd world we live in.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2014 at 07:38
Well, quite, Chopper. ;-)

It's interesting how many non musicians tell the musicians that they aren't starving. Or perhaps it's OK that they don't make enough money to do it full time, produce albums, go on tour, add to the genre. Seems pretty strange logic to me. Mind you, they do get a lot of free downloads. ;-)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2014 at 07:17
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

If music it is popular it can be monetized and sold. Prog is really not popular.
... 
 
 
I would think there are many groups out there that are not "popular" and they are doing just fine.
 
I can even look at Djam Karet, who are not a group out there pushing for their sales as a major part of their lives and yet, 25 years later, they are fine. Not perfect, but fine.
 
 
I'm interested to know exactly how "fine" they are - do they earn enough to make music their full time career or do they all have other jobs?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2014 at 07:14
Quote - "And heck if there isn't more great music being made now than ever before. Even better, so much of it is available as high-quality FLAC downloads from sites like bandcamp -- easy to buy, easy to download, not too expensive. Far more attractive an alternative than piracy."

Hi, Stereolab, possibly true there. The trouble is that the good stuff is obscured by 99.9% being pure dross. ;-) On top of that, yes, it's theoretically possible to pay for and download high quality music from Bandcamp et al, but my experience of selling music on there is that you are effectively acting as a radio station for people to stream music on.

Quote - "Why is it automatically assumed that making music MUST eventually become a full-time endeavor for every artist?"

Unfortunately, a lot of bands DO think like that and are sadly mistaken. The problem is that it is becoming utterly impossible for non mainstream bands - no matter how good - to make a living of any sorts from music. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2014 at 07:10
Actually, I've decided to start up a "space rock" record label on Bandcamp, invite another 11 bands along, help them sell music. I *am* going to charge a token amount from any profits as an admin fee - £1 per download - so it's just finding the bands and helping them with some PR. This is possibly a new way to go (everyone benefits from cross selling (I'm in sales and marketing, anyway) ) but it's just an example of the way musicians have to work now - you spend little time recording and a lot of time trying to generate sales. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2014 at 23:35
I've been spending a lot of time recently browsing prog and metal sites for information about new bands (progstreaming.com, progmetalzone.com, etc). Stuff that I haven't found already by browsing this forum, mostly. And heck if there isn't more great music being made now than ever before. Even better, so much of it is available as high-quality FLAC downloads from sites like bandcamp -- easy to buy, easy to download, not too expensive. Far more attractive an alternative than piracy.

Now surely only a small fraction of these bands are making enough from their music to do it full-time, even considering the fact they get a much bigger cut from direct sales. But is this so bad? If they are a happy earning a bit of cash from doing something they love in their free time, then so be it. Why is it automatically assumed that making music MUST eventually become a full-time endeavor for every artist? The fact is, technology has made it cheaper and easier than ever before to record high-quality music and make it available to the masses.



Edited by Stereolab - October 05 2014 at 23:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2014 at 14:04
There was once a psychedelic band in a country, where any rock music was forbidden. They were making amazing albums on self-made recording systems made out of old reel magnitophones and effect out of microphones attached to the lamps. Art won't die.
Regarding fruty loops and garage bands - well most of the people use these things bluntly, and its good, because at the times when the gear is available, the mastery and creativity starts making the difference.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2014 at 13:38
Originally posted by Anoraknok Anoraknok wrote:

It can not kill progressive rock, because progressive rock - fortunately - for many artists remain the way of self-expression. It will, however, hopefully, kill the music industry. But it is most welcome to do such.
If you cut off the tail of a lizard it will grow a new tail. The old tail does not survive, nor does it grow a new body.

If the music industry dies then all music will suffer because the industries that feed into the music industry will not survive and so all the music that also relies on the technology and support that those non-music industries provide would not survive. Fringe, esoteric and niche music rides on the coat-tails of mainstream music and all the commercial enterprise that rely on it. If it was not for the music industry creating a mass market for music we would not have the concept of The Album; we would not have vinyl and good quality audio equipment to play it on. We would not have the modern studio; we would not have the concept of home studio. We would not have cassette or compact disc because Philips and Sony would not have invested millions of dollars in a technology of zero value. Without compact discs we would not have digital technology and downloadable music and video. Without downloadable content we would not have portable media players and a mobile cellular telephone would have remained a simple a voice communication device. If music does not make money for the music industry and all the industry that supports it then there would be no incentive to create the technology we so love today. Cut off the body and the tail will die.

Perhaps you are okay with this. Sure we can survive with what we have. We don't need technology to progress further, we are happy with what we have. As long as a market exists for the makers of home studio equipment they will survive, development will stop of course because the technical advances in that area are made for the professional studio, and they will no longer trickle down to the domestic market, but that's okay, we don't need the perfection that a modern studio provides - its all bland, homogenised, overproduced and overcompressed anyway. We can do all that on a PC with Fruityloops and  GarageBand any day.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2014 at 11:13
Hi Dr Wu, this is why so many bands sell out. 

"Now pay the mortgage". It's unfortunate, but you can only be non commercial - and viable - for so long. There are a lot of bedroom musicians and bands, but the days of music venues in your home town being full of decent, inventive musicians that people will take a chance on seeing are gone. 

Perhaps piracy won't kill prog rock, as it will, as Anoraknok says above, continue to be produced, but I keep on being reminded of the sad old 1976 punk rockers walking around with "punx not dead" t-shirts on. Oh, really ? Just a bit ill, is it ? 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2014 at 10:27
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Moshkito, do you have access to their bank accounts ? ;-)
 
 
Good point Dave and for all we know bands like that have day jobs or other sources of income so they can pay the bills.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2014 at 10:12
It can not kill progressive rock, because progressive rock - fortunately - for many artists remain the way of self-expression. It will, however, hopefully, kill the music industry. But it is most welcome to do such.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2014 at 09:59
Moshkito, do you have access to their bank accounts ? ;-)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2014 at 12:57
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

If music it is popular it can be monetized and sold. Prog is really not popular.
... 
 
 
I would think there are many groups out there that are not "popular" and they are doing just fine.
 
I can even look at Djam Karet, who are not a group out there pushing for their sales as a major part of their lives and yet, 25 years later, they are fine. Not perfect, but fine.
 
Not sure it is about popularity anymore, than it is about your desire and ability to show yourself out there on the internet, now.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2014 at 11:02
One light on stage, folks, can be £200 / $250. (I'm thinking "Solar 250 second hand with rotator plus oil wheel"). Most people hire lights and PA - it can be £500 to hire a PA for a night - $750 - for a decent gig. All this eats into your profits until you can afford decent gear. 

A decent guitar plus amps plus effects is probably £1750 - 2500. Ditto bass. Drums and keyboards, bring money. 

And then, as Dean says, the cost of transport, venue hire, the sheer logistics of it is staggering. Hell of a lot of CD sales and downloads. Yes, you can sell merchandise at the gig, but you've had to fork out to get it produced in the first place and there's no guarantee it will sell. Or people will even turn up. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2014 at 07:35
Nice post Dean and unfortunely true Unhappy

It's nice  to witness the few bands that make it though: I saw a stoner rock band the first time on a small venue and rapidly did european tours and festivals. The last time I saw them was in a festival last year and I couldn't believe it was the same band I once saw on a claustrophobic stage Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2014 at 07:15
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I am confused as to how a ringtone could be included in certifying ALBUM sales, since by definition a ringtone roughly approximates a single.  Anyhow, according to Nielsen Soundscan, every one of the top 10 selling albums of 2013 in US exceeded a million,  digital, CD and vinyl combined.  I don't see how a digital download of an album is less valid for certification than a CD or vinyl, by the way.  

Further, in 2009, Susan Boyle's I Dreamed a Dream sold 9 million albums worldwide and Taylor Swift's Fearless exceeded 5 million.  So I am not sure how that ties up with a ringtone being the only thing that went platinum in 2009.  Or do you really mean diamond?  

There's no doubt, by the way, that sales of top pop artists have dramatically declined.  At the same time, they do still manage to go platinum and in that sense are far more successful than artists outside the mainstream.  So that seems to go against a claim made earlier in the thread that prog would be insulated against illegal download UNLIKE pop.  
 
If I can interject... it's messy, and searching the RIAA database gives odd results, it also "lumps" albums,singles and ringtones together (but counts them separately). 

If you search for 2009 Susan Boyle and Taylor Swift do not show up, but if you search for Susan Boyle it says she was certified  3x platinum in December 2009. Similarly Taylor Swift's Fearless was certified 4x platinum in September 2009 but was released in 2008. Other releases went platinum in 2009 but they were also not 2009 releases.

What qualifies as gold, platinum and diamond varies from country to country dependant on market size. RIAA figures are only for American sales and do not count World-wide tallies. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_music_recording_certifications)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2014 at 06:55
And besides, even if either band or label or both were indeed money minded and making enough from live shows that they didn't need to sell albums to stay viable, that still wouldn't justify illegal downloading of it.  I am not sure how many, if any at all, in the generation after mine in my city buy music in any form anymore.  We at least used to handle music in physical form regularly so some of us still buy music but it's probably nil, nada for the next gen.  

I wonder if the ramifications are fully appreciated by a lot of people.  Things are not going to magically work out any more than markets magically corrected the mistakes of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in 2007.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2014 at 06:37
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

 
I am not a musician but now feel even more depressed
LOL I was a band manager and gig promoter for five years and much of it was depressing, but when you put on a good show, or when your band plays a blinding set there is nothing to beat it. Even watching from the wings there is a great deal of satisfaction to be gained when everything works. I don't regret doing it, it was a great experience and in the main I enjoyed doing it, but I certainly didn't love every minute of it... Would I do it again? No. Never.

Promoters of small gigs of amateur band do not do it for the money, they do it because they love music. Think about the maths of it all - three bands, 150 seat venue, £5 on the door - that's £750 if you sell every ticket and assumes each band can bring 50 "fans". Subtract from that the cost of hiring the venue (£50/hour for 6 hours = £300), hiring the PA (£300), paying the sound guy (£50), paying for flyers and posters (£50) and that leaves £50 to split between the bands.

The name of the game is show business and it is an entertainment. If you can entertain a room full of people who have paid to see the show then that is a cause for celebration and joy. Making money is secondary or even tertiary to that.

I only mentioned all this because there is this weird assumption prevalent in this thread that bands can make money from touring so they don't need to make money from selling albums. This is a fallacy that is used to justify piracy and that is the really depressing thing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2014 at 06:21
Interesting what Dean said and in fact Steely Dan, or rather Fagen and Becker, made the same observation after touring on the back of Countdown to Ecstasy.  Their bandmates wanted to tour and they saw that they were only losing money on tours after a lot of effort. So it was possibly one of the main reasons they became a 'studio band'.  And now the alternative of selling records to make a living has become a lot more difficult than it was for them.
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