Dream Theater: Prog innovators or merely imitators

TradeMark0 wrote: Cristi wrote: paragraph7 wrote: I guess my reply is a tad late when it comes to the OP post. But since I don't consider DT to be prog at all; hence my answer would be "mere imitators". come on, make my day, what are they playing then? Metal obviously. What else?

what kind because this metal you're talking about is quite diverse

^'Unmemorable" is the description that I've been looking for years to describe this band, Doc.

moshkito wrote: Dean wrote:  Labrie isn't the main lyricist for DT, Petrucci is, so that's all pretty academic (Portnoy wrote twice as many lyrics as Labrie) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_recorded_by_Dream_Theater  ...   I believe this is a mis-interpretation of what i said!

Dean wrote:  Labrie isn't the main lyricist for DT, Petrucci is, so that's all pretty academic (Portnoy wrote twice as many lyrics as Labrie) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_recorded_by_Dream_Theater  ...

 Labrie isn't the main lyricist for DT, Petrucci is, so that's all pretty academic (Portnoy wrote twice as many lyrics as Labrie)

rogerthat wrote: TradeMark0 wrote: moshkito wrote: [QUOTE=Prog Snob] I think 10% less on the guitar and more on the others would likely make this band a lot better.   That's an idea, though ... please mind that! A good idea... but the problem lies in the fact that much Dream Theater's music is riff oriented. It mainly consists of guitar riffs and solos and sometimes the same with the keyboard. The occasional orchestration is nice although sounds as though it was ripped right out of a movie score. I don't really care anymore about weather or not a band is "good" like I used to. I'm much more interested in what they are doing with their art, and Dream Theater is uninteresting to me.   Nail on the head. Dream Theater are essentially a metal band so progheads approaching them with the expectations they may have of prog rock will be frustrated in their attempts to come to terms with DT. Meanwhile metalheads won't take to LaBrie's vocals and what THEY see as too much keyboard. Basically DT fulfil the need of listeners who would like metal with some complexity and sophistication but who find music without metal riffs 'sissy'.

I would be concerned if someone that spent time at the Berklee Music School, would/could only do "riff's" ... that would be the worst representation of music and teaching in ANY music school in the world!

Where I think their problem lies, might just be with James not living in the same place as them, and only joining the building process LATER, which I think may have a tendency to make the players work with themselves more, and the words less important later ... and when James shows up they make small adjustments to what they already have ... something like this, and it is described in their book.

Thus, for a lot of their work to become less "riff'y", I think the writing has to be more complete and with the singer from the start, rather than just an addon. However, few people will argue that he is not very good at matching moments and emotions ... he does very well, but it is int he middle of a riff'y design, that could/would be a bit tiring a bit later, and makes us question the innovative'ness of it all.

My idea is that the writing process has to change for the music to be more direct and proper with the words, instead of just adding some words later. The writing "process" is not well defined as a "whole", because it is not complete from the start ... and I think this leads to an "imcomplete" baby!

rogerthat wrote: TradeMark0 wrote: moshkito wrote: [QUOTE=Prog Snob] I think 10% less on the guitar and more on the others would likely make this band a lot better.   That's an idea, though ... please mind that! A good idea... but the problem lies in the fact that much Dream Theater's music is riff oriented. It mainly consists of guitar riffs and solos and sometimes the same with the keyboard. The occasional orchestration is nice although sounds as though it was ripped right out of a movie score.  I don't really care anymore about weather or not a band is "good" like I used to. I'm much more interested in what they are doing with their art, and Dream Theater is uninteresting to me.   Nail on the head. Dream Theater are essentially a metal band so progheads approaching them with the expectations they may have of prog rock will be frustrated in their attempts to come to terms with DT. Meanwhile metalheads won't take to LaBrie's vocals and what THEY see as too much keyboard. Basically DT fulfil the need of listeners who would like metal with some complexity and sophistication but who find music without metal riffs 'sissy'.

Perhaps you're right. But I do love a good riff, and DT is brimming with those. Even if the recent music is not quite as fresh as their earlier stuff, it's still heavy, driving, and can knock your socks off if you let it.

If that's what I'm in the mood for, DT is a good choice. If not, well there are a million other options out there.

Cristi wrote: ^ Train off Thought was an amazing album for me, it sounded a bit different than their earlier works, heavier and their playing was very tight. Octavarium was their last great album IMO; something got lost after that; they kinda make music because they have contracts to honor or something, I dunno. There definitely are a lot of good songs on their last works, but for me, it ain't what it used to be,  my excitement is gone. as for Jordan being more present, i disagree, he was great on the self-titled album fortunately, because he suffocated ADTOE with his keys, that album barely breathes.

Yeah, I guess after Ocavarium they did loose something. Even though I have had trouble with their whole albums (usually they have some material I really don't like which wouldn't allow me to rate them 5 stars), for Systematic Chaos I only really liked the first song (though what a song). Still, I really enjoy Silver Linings... but I must admit that at least at first it did sound somewhat tired. I don't think it's a thing about contracts, since Portnoy before he left, wanted DT to take a 5 year break or something, so they could have done it... only that the other guys didn't want to. I still think Portnoy was right and it would have done the band some good, for they have kept on sounding tired and formulaic for the last two albums. I believe more than a contract, the rest of the band wanted to prove something... and somehow they didn't want to stop making music and touring.

^ Train off Thought was an amazing album for me, it sounded a bit different than their earlier works, heavier and their playing was very tight.
Octavarium was their last great album IMO; something got lost after that; they kinda make music because they have contracts to honor or something, I dunno. There definitely are a lot of good songs on their last works, but for me, it ain't what it used to be,  my excitement is gone.

as for Jordan being more present, i disagree, he was great on the self-titled album fortunately, because he suffocated ADTOE with his keys, that album barely breathes.


Edited by Cristi - February 13 2015 at 03:46

Prog Snob wrote: Indeed and I do think the actual track of Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is probably the last truly amazing thing they did. The song runs the gamut and the lyrical content is just as good. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they haven't made anything good since then, but if we're talking innovation and something stellar, 6DOIT should definitely be mentioned. Metropolis 2 was actually supposed to be part of a double-disc set included on Falling Into Infinity but the label thought making a double CD would be in poor taste.

I never really liked the 6 degrees CD length suit. I really love CD 1, and if that were the whole album it would be my favourite from the band, but the actuall 6 degrees "song" doesn't do much for me, except for a few moments here and there. And after this song/album, they have done some really wonderful stuff. I really like the Train of Thought album (I gues this one would actually be my favourite from them), and "Stream of Consciousness is for me among the most amazing songs they have done. Then comes the Octavarium song, perhaps my very favourite song from them. And after that, at the very least Sleeping with Enemies part 1, from the next album, is also among their most special songs. Perhaps Silver Linings already lost some of that, and still I like that album a lot. For me, they really lost it when they let Portnoy go away... I still think they should have taken his advice and taken a brake for a time... they just lost their spark in their last 2 albums.