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Kati 
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 Topic: Earliest ProtoProg Beatles Song?
Posted: March 06 2014 at 22:33 |
Thank you very much, Dark Elf  I have a clear understanding now of what proto might be perceived especially in regards to this topic. Again thank you so much. 
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: March 06 2014 at 21:05 |
 King Crimson776 wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
King Crimson776 wrote:
Tomorrow Never Knows is much too simple. Nothing before Pepper can be seriously considered here.
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And your reason for formulating such an opinion is based on...what? |
TNK
doesn't hint at any of the inherent elements of prog. I see
Eleanor Rigby being mentioned, but I don't think every 60's pop song
with prominent classical melodies or strings is necessarily proto-prog. I
think when you get to things like A Day in the Life and Good
Vibrations, where the structure of the song starts to expand outward and
upward, that is when the embryo of prog starts to take recognizable
form. I would say Pet Sounds and Eleanor Rigby are a step too far back.
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I mentioned "Eleanor Rigby" as definitely being proto-prog as it was unlike any rock song of its time, but I really didn't mention other bands who used strings or classical arrangements because that was a rarity in 1966, particularly The Beatles choosing to go completely against convention by foregoing the use of guitars and drums and opting instead for a double string quartet. It was unheard of.
In addition, the changing of modes, shifting from Dorian to Aeolian gives the song its unique character. Not to mention the staccato string arrangements bearing the direct influence of Bernard Herrmann's Psycho score as well as Paul McCartney' s newfound interest in Vivaldi. This isn't rock with string fills, it is something extraordinary and different. For 1966, it was progressive in the truest sense of the word (but not proto-prog because there was no greasy Hammond organ playing  ).
The influence on other musicians was immediate. There aren't many compositions that are covered by a jazz great like Wes Montgomery, a rock band like Vanilla Fudge, a folkie like Richie Havens, a crooner like Tony Bennett and an R&B band like Booker T and the MGs all within a year or two of its release. Breaking musical boundaries is an element of prog. This The Beatles did, while breaking societal boundaries at the same time. Ask your boy Robert Fripp how much he was influenced by The Beatles.
As far as Tomorrow Never Knows being proto-prog or possessing inherent proto-prog elements, I believe earlyprog summed it up quite nicely.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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earlyprog
Collaborator
Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams
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Posted: March 06 2014 at 11:17 |
King Crimson776 wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
King Crimson776 wrote:
Tomorrow Never Knows is much too simple. Nothing before Pepper can be seriously considered here.
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And your reason for formulating such an opinion is based on...what? |
TNK
doesn't hint at any of the inherent elements of prog.
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Using raga and musique concrete as mix ingredients is not an inherent element in the development of prog?! They may not be the dominant elements in prog but they paved the way for other genres to be mixed into what would eventually become prog.
Edited by earlyprog - March 06 2014 at 11:22
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chopper
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Posted: March 06 2014 at 08:08 |
Svetonio wrote:
^ Yea of course I would go to see a doctor because I don't recognize the Beatles as proto-prog band as all of normal people usually do as well.
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You said it!
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Svetonio
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Posted: March 06 2014 at 07:49 |
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^ Yea of course I would go to see a doctor because I don't recognize the Beatles as proto-prog band as all of normal people usually do as well.
Edited by Svetonio - March 06 2014 at 07:54
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chopper
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Posted: March 06 2014 at 06:55 |
Svetonio wrote:
I'm not Knobby's doppelganger. I believe him because his words sounded logical.
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If I were you I would be a very worried man.
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Svetonio
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Posted: March 06 2014 at 05:59 |
Dean wrote:
At least we now know what you look like  |
Just a vacation pic..
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Svetonio
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Posted: March 06 2014 at 05:54 |
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^ Yea I know that you think that Sid Bonkers is Eclectic Prog.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
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Posted: March 06 2014 at 05:47 |
Svetonio wrote:
^ I'm laughing at you also.
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I know this bloke.
Sid Bonkers, who wrote, performed, and produced a glorious psych heavy metal proto blues orientated prog album via Bandcamp on a pay as little as you like basis in 2012. The £4.40 raised has guaranteed a follow up to be released next year.
I, for one, cannot wait.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Dean
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: March 06 2014 at 05:44 |
At least we now know what you look like
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What?
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Svetonio
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Posted: March 06 2014 at 05:37 |
^ I'm laughing at you also.
Edited by Svetonio - March 06 2014 at 05:41
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Dean
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Posted: March 06 2014 at 05:20 |
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lol.
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What?
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Svetonio
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Joined: September 20 2010
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Posted: March 06 2014 at 05:06 |
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^ Also, I suggested Pete & Royce for Neo or Eclectic.
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Dean
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Posted: March 06 2014 at 05:02 |
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lol.
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What?
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Svetonio
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Posted: March 06 2014 at 04:40 |
Dean wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
Just find this in bio of an obscure grreek prog band who was realesed two LPs in late 70s, now re-issued as digital albums:
| (...) With that exquisite basement feel encountered in the early 70s British proto-progressive bands, it is one of the essential Greek progressive albums of all times(...) |
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Two words stand out: obscure and Greek. And as far as the author of the piece, I still question how one can be "proto-progressive" after the fact. You cannot post-date a movement with pre-dated material. Progressive rock was a fact in the early 70s (it was, by all accounts, available in 1969 as you yourself noted), and your boys, Deep Purple, were not proto-prog in the early 70s. Fireball and Machine Head are virtually non-prog. Or perhaps they were post-prog with pre-prog intentions and coeval-prog every Tuesday and Wednesday. |
Why those two words "stand out" for you ? Do you think that these young Greeks in early 70s weren't ordering LPs from British dealers, or what?
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What I find laughable is that the reviewer refers to the Greek band as sounding like the "prog/psych sound of the mid-period PINK FLOYD and the mellotron school (FANTASY, CRESSIDA, KESTREL, early B.J.H.), resulting in a style heavily relying on mellow soundscapes" -- and this is what they refer to as proto-progressive.
Have you listened to any of these bands, Svetonio? I have. None of these bands have greasy Hammond organs blaring away. Mellow and mellotron, not hard and Hammond. The reviewer doesn't have a clue, so where does that leave you and your original argument...I mean, Knobby's original argument? |
he actually suggested this band for Neo Prog:
Svetonio wrote:
apps79 wrote:
Neo it is not in my opinion, I have listened to their works and they are too retro-styled, somewhere between 70's Psychedelic Rock, light Symphonic and Proto-Prog.Hard to find the perfect category for them.Eclectic or Xover are too possible candidates. |
Yea, I understand. I put * Neo * mainly due to the time frame when the original vinyls were issued. |
So... to recap Proto-Prog is greasy hammond sound, inveterate teller of tall-tales and consummate internet troll Wally "Knobby" Wallace Bunburys is believable because his words sounded logical, any album released in the late 70s is Neo Prog and BlandiKampf is now the indisputable fount of all knowledge...
..brilliant. 
lol.
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Pete & Royce actually released their magnificent progressive rock albums in early 80s. That's the time frame for Neo as per definition of the sub-genre without a doubt (sorry for my mistake from above post). Is that Neo style or not, that other guy is decided, not you.
Although, I would to read that page again, maybe you already changed the definition of Neo Prog - it would not be the first time to change the definition of a sub-genre.. - just kidding, of course.
Edited by Svetonio - March 06 2014 at 04:54
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King Crimson776
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Joined: October 12 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
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Posted: March 06 2014 at 02:54 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
King Crimson776 wrote:
Tomorrow Never Knows is much too simple. Nothing before Pepper can be seriously considered here.
|
And your reason for formulating such an opinion is based on...what? |
TNK
doesn't hint at any of the inherent elements of prog. I see
Eleanor Rigby being mentioned, but I don't think every 60's pop song
with prominent classical melodies or strings is necessarily proto-prog. I
think when you get to things like A Day in the Life and Good
Vibrations, where the structure of the song starts to expand outward and
upward, that is when the embryo of prog starts to take recognizable
form. I would say Pet Sounds and Eleanor Rigby are a step too far back.
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: March 06 2014 at 02:30 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
Just find this in bio of an obscure grreek prog band who was realesed two LPs in late 70s, now re-issued as digital albums:
| (...) With that exquisite basement feel encountered in the early 70s British proto-progressive bands, it is one of the essential Greek progressive albums of all times(...) |
|
Two words stand out: obscure and Greek. And as far as the author of the piece, I still question how one can be "proto-progressive" after the fact. You cannot post-date a movement with pre-dated material. Progressive rock was a fact in the early 70s (it was, by all accounts, available in 1969 as you yourself noted), and your boys, Deep Purple, were not proto-prog in the early 70s. Fireball and Machine Head are virtually non-prog. Or perhaps they were post-prog with pre-prog intentions and coeval-prog every Tuesday and Wednesday. |
Why those two words "stand out" for you ? Do you think that these young Greeks in early 70s weren't ordering LPs from British dealers, or what?
|
What I find laughable is that the reviewer refers to the Greek band as sounding like the "prog/psych sound of the mid-period PINK FLOYD and the mellotron school (FANTASY, CRESSIDA, KESTREL, early B.J.H.), resulting in a style heavily relying on mellow soundscapes" -- and this is what they refer to as proto-progressive.
Have you listened to any of these bands, Svetonio? I have. None of these bands have greasy Hammond organs blaring away. Mellow and mellotron, not hard and Hammond. The reviewer doesn't have a clue, so where does that leave you and your original argument...I mean, Knobby's original argument? |
he actually suggested this band for Neo Prog:
Svetonio wrote:
apps79 wrote:
Neo it is not in my opinion, I have listened to their works and they are too retro-styled, somewhere between 70's Psychedelic Rock, light Symphonic and Proto-Prog.Hard to find the perfect category for them.Eclectic or Xover are too possible candidates. |
Yea, I understand. I put * Neo * mainly due to the time frame when the original vinyls were issued. |
So... to recap Proto-Prog is greasy hammond sound, inveterate teller of tall-tales and consummate internet troll Wally "Knobby" Wallace Bunburys is believable because his words sounded logical, any album released in the late 70s is Neo Prog and BlandiKampf is now the indisputable fount of all knowledge...
..brilliant.
lol.
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What?
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13056
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Posted: March 05 2014 at 22:34 |
Svetonio wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
Just find this in bio of an obscure grreek prog band who was realesed two LPs in late 70s, now re-issued as digital albums:
| (...) With that exquisite basement feel encountered in the early 70s British proto-progressive bands, it is one of the essential Greek progressive albums of all times(...) |
|
Two words stand out: obscure and Greek. And as far as the author of the piece, I still question how one can be "proto-progressive" after the fact. You cannot post-date a movement with pre-dated material. Progressive rock was a fact in the early 70s (it was, by all accounts, available in 1969 as you yourself noted), and your boys, Deep Purple, were not proto-prog in the early 70s. Fireball and Machine Head are virtually non-prog. Or perhaps they were post-prog with pre-prog intentions and coeval-prog every Tuesday and Wednesday. |
Why those two words "stand out" for you ? Do you think that these young Greeks in early 70s weren't ordering LPs from British dealers, or what?
|
What I find laughable is that the reviewer refers to the Greek band as sounding like the "prog/psych sound of the mid-period PINK FLOYD and the mellotron school (FANTASY, CRESSIDA, KESTREL, early B.J.H.), resulting in a style heavily relying on mellow soundscapes" -- and this is what they refer to as proto-progressive.
Have you listened to any of these bands, Svetonio? I have. None of these bands have greasy Hammond organs blaring away. Mellow and mellotron, not hard and Hammond. The reviewer doesn't have a clue, so where does that leave you and your original argument...I mean, Knobby's original argument?
|
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
|
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
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Posted: March 05 2014 at 22:25 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
Just find this in bio of an obscure grreek prog band who was realesed two LPs in late 70s, now re-issued as digital albums:
| (...) With that exquisite basement feel encountered in the early 70s British proto-progressive bands, it is one of the essential Greek progressive albums of all times(...) |
|
Two words stand out: obscure and Greek. And as far as the author of the piece, I still question how one can be "proto-progressive" after the fact. You cannot post-date a movement with pre-dated material. Progressive rock was a fact in the early 70s (it was, by all accounts, available in 1969 as you yourself noted), and your boys, Deep Purple, were not proto-prog in the early 70s. Fireball and Machine Head are virtually non-prog. Or perhaps they were post-prog with pre-prog intentions and coeval-prog every Tuesday and Wednesday. |
Why those two words "stand out" for you ? Do you think that these young Greeks in early 70s weren't ordering LPs from British dealers, or what?
As I already said: I'm not Knobby's doppelganger. I believe him because his words sounded logical.
Edited by Svetonio - March 05 2014 at 22:33
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13056
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Posted: March 05 2014 at 22:17 |
Svetonio wrote:
Just find this in bio of an obscure grreek prog band who was realesed two LPs in late 70s, now re-issued as digital albums:
| (...) With that exquisite basement feel encountered in the early 70s British proto-progressive bands, it is one of the essential Greek progressive albums of all times(...) |
|
Two words stand out: obscure and Greek. And as far as the author of the piece, I still question how one can be "proto-progressive" after the fact. You cannot post-date a movement with pre-dated material. Progressive rock was a fact in the early 70s (it was, by all accounts, available in 1969 as you yourself noted), and your boys, Deep Purple, were not proto-prog in the early 70s. Fireball and Machine Head are virtually non-prog. Or perhaps they were post-prog with pre-prog intentions and coeval-prog every Tuesday and Wednesday.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
|
|
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Earliest ProtoProg Beatles Song?
