Forum Home Forum Home > Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements > Help us improve the site
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - No Longer Prog!
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedNo Longer Prog!
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
presdoug View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8649 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: No Longer Prog!
    Posted: October 04 2012 at 17:22
^ Or go to Discogs or Rateyourmusic-that is where i had to go to review Helmut Koellen.
Back to Top
Mellotron Storm View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: August 27 2006
Location: The Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 13558 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2012 at 16:12

^ As Bob has pointed out this just isn't going to happen unless M@X has a change of heart and personally i like things as they are.
I like that they've branched out with Jazzmusicarchives and Metalmusicarchives because if it's just a case of wanting your opinion heard on certain albums you can go and do reviews at those places. I'm thinking of the bands you mentioned like Judas Priest, UFO and Scorpions. I know i lamented that Katatonia wasn't on here but when i get around to it i'll just review them over there, same with Judas Priest.
"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
Back to Top
Easy Livin View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2012 at 13:20
The decision that a band's complete discography should be added is solely down to M@x, the site owner. There was a lot of debate about it in the early days, and M@x made it clear that was how it was to be. It can of course be debated again, but that is a fundamental tenet of the site.

There are no exceptions to this, even bands such as IGB and Tyrannosaurus Rex have all their albums added (or eligible) providing they are by those specific artists.
Back to Top
Bosh66 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 23 2009
Location: Bolton, Lancs
Status: Offline
Points: 528 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 04 2012 at 03:51
I still struggle to see why restricting the discography for certain bands should prove to be an issue. Whether done manually (note in the biography like on the IGB page) or by the system, we would know which bands fall into this category whn we add them.
If not (and I suspect not!), someone on this site I think did suggest somewhere having a category similar to the Various Artists category (Samplers, Concept Albums, Tributes) where people could add progressive albums, but not progressive bands. That might work. To stop the site getting swamped with all sorts of proggy albums by mainstream artists that they want to review or promote, additions to the "sub-genre" could even be restricted to admin or collabs. It can't be beyond the ken of mortal men to solve this. Of course, I may be in a small minority who think that there is an issue at all here!
Back to Top
Ambient Hurricanes View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
Status: Offline
Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 22:18
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I see thye OP's point, there's more to it than just some mildly proggy LP by the Scorps;  Almost everyone with any real interest in music and its expansion did at least one album between about 1970 and 1979 that could be considered progressive rock, or a progression of rock.   It was truly a Grand Age of Prog and you had people as Meatloaf[Bat Out of Hell], Stevie Wonder[Music of My Mind,Songs in the Key of Life], even McCartney[Wild Life].   I'm not suggesting these artists be considered for ProgRelated or even the albums, just that this Grand Age should be recognized.



But isn't that what the Prog-related section should be for?

I mean, why not add bands that had prog albums but not prog careers to PR?  People get pissed and go, "but that band isn't prog," and you say, trollfacely, "But A Ha (see what I did there), they are in prog related, not a full prog subgenre!"

Prog Related should be the largest "subgenre" here, truth be told.


In theory, I agree with you, but I don't want this to become the prog related archives, so I do support somewhat of a strict standard for which bands can be included.  If most artists in the 70's released a proggy album at some point, then the site could be flooded with new additions of bands that may technically belong in PR but, in the larger context of the site, would be better left out.

I think the criteria for new Prog Related additions right now is that the artist must be clearly influenced by progressive rock and also have had an influence upon the prog scene.  I think that could be tweaked a bit (it basically rules out new bands from inclusion in PR) but I think something like it is necessary to keep the focus of the site.
I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
Back to Top
NotAProghead View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7870 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 19:41
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

 But isn't that what the Prog-related section should be for?
As I remember from past discussions, Prog-related section was intended for bands/artists whose music has prog elements, but who don't have fully prog albums. If they released at least one prog album they should be included in some prog genre. Excuse me if I'm wrong.

But what I'm trying to say here is that the last thing I want to see on PA is different rules (like complete discography for some bands and only selected albums for others). It's too confusing. 
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32530 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 19:18
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I see thye OP's point, there's more to it than just some mildly proggy LP by the Scorps;  Almost everyone with any real interest in music and its expansion did at least one album between about 1970 and 1979 that could be considered progressive rock, or a progression of rock.   It was truly a Grand Age of Prog and you had people as Meatloaf[Bat Out of Hell], Stevie Wonder[Music of My Mind,Songs in the Key of Life], even McCartney[Wild Life].   I'm not suggesting these artists be considered for ProgRelated or even the albums, just that this Grand Age should be recognized.



But isn't that what the Prog-related section should be for?

I mean, why not add bands that had prog albums but not prog careers to PR?  People get pissed and go, "but that band isn't prog," and you say, trollfacely, "But A Ha (see what I did there), they are in prog related, not a full prog subgenre!"

Prog Related should be the largest "subgenre" here, truth be told.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65289 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 18:39
I see thye OP's point, there's more to it than just some mildly proggy LP by the Scorps;  Almost everyone with any real interest in music and its expansion did at least one album between about 1970 and 1979 that could be considered progressive rock, or a progression of rock.   It was truly a Grand Age of Prog and you had people as Meatloaf[Bat Out of Hell], Stevie Wonder[Music of My Mind,Songs in the Key of Life], even McCartney[Wild Life].   I'm not suggesting these artists be considered for ProgRelated or even the albums, just that this Grand Age should be recognized.
Back to Top
NotAProghead View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7870 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 16:40
^ Discussions like this happen from time to time. 
There were suggestions to add, for instance, The Scorpions because of their proggy debut. Rejected.

Another example - Alan Sorrenti http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=2807. His first 2 albums are almost corner stones of Italian prog (I can't stand them, but that's not the point Smile) while the rest are pure pop. It was a tough decision, but the artist is here.

I think if you'd like to see some band here the only way is to suggest it and prove the progginess of at least some albums with convincing arguments. It's not always so easy, you have to have enough patience to make it.  
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
Back to Top
Bosh66 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 23 2009
Location: Bolton, Lancs
Status: Offline
Points: 528 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 15:10
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Originally posted by Bosh66 Bosh66 wrote:

Adding the first three UFO albums for example has no impact on the rest of the site. Adding all UFO albums would have a negative impact on the site (even though there are proggy bits in some of the later albums).
How to control this? Block "Add albums" after adding these 3 albums? 

There is a rule: if the band is on PA, its entire official discography could be added. In my opinion it's a good rule and no need to invent new troubles. People are not deaf to sort out which albums are prog and which ones are non-prog.
 
Ok, I wasn't really expecting this to go anywhere. The problem with this is though, a band like UFO (purely an example - there are obviously others) is unlikely to be included on PA because the vast majority of their albums (after the first three) are straight hard rock. So the prog albums get ommited as well. So be it.
Back to Top
thellama73 View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 13:25
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

People are not deaf


Some people are deaf and I think it's insensitive of you to deny their affliction.
Back to Top
NotAProghead View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7870 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 13:21
Originally posted by Bosh66 Bosh66 wrote:

Adding the first three UFO albums for example has no impact on the rest of the site. Adding all UFO albums would have a negative impact on the site (even though there are proggy bits in some of the later albums).
How to control this? Block "Add albums" after adding these 3 albums? 

There is a rule: if the band is on PA, its entire official discography could be added. In my opinion it's a good rule and no need to invent new troubles. People are not deaf to sort out which albums are prog and which ones are non-prog.
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
Back to Top
Bosh66 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 23 2009
Location: Bolton, Lancs
Status: Offline
Points: 528 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 11:03
I kind of agree with you tamijo. We likely have to accept that not all albums will be in the correct genre. Many many prog bands flit between genres, and as you suggest between prog and non-prog. That wasn't what I was suggesting we do in the OP though. Adding the first three UFO albums for example has no impact on the rest of the site. Adding all UFO albums would have a negative impact on the site (even though there are proggy bits in some of the later albums).
Back to Top
tamijo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4287 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 10:50
The best would be genre by album, but its just a very huge task for the grene admins, to go trough every album by every artist. Can imagine trying to spilt everything by Zappa into the right category.
Not to mention how angry fans would be if albums already on PA was removed, is every Genesis album prog ?
How many Beatles albums are proto, ect ect, would be endless debates.
What we got is far from perfect, but its hard to make it a lot better.
Unless you are prepared to start everything all over, I doubt that will ever happen.
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
Back to Top
Bosh66 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 23 2009
Location: Bolton, Lancs
Status: Offline
Points: 528 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 08:03
Clap
Back to Top
thellama73 View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 08:01
Originally posted by Bosh66 Bosh66 wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

It is a little annoying that albums like Kind Of Blue end up at the top of the Jazz Rock/Fusion charts when there's nothing fusion about them.
Or Hancock's Maiden Voyage! See, if we were prepared to restrict chronologically we could have excluded anything prior to In A Silent Way or Mwandishi Wink
And now I've just alienated the jazz enthusiasts Confused


That's okay, that's why we have Jazz Music Archives.
Back to Top
Bosh66 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 23 2009
Location: Bolton, Lancs
Status: Offline
Points: 528 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 07:56
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

It is a little annoying that albums like Kind Of Blue end up at the top of the Jazz Rock/Fusion charts when there's nothing fusion about them.
Or Hancock's Maiden Voyage! See, if we were prepared to restrict chronologically we could have excluded anything prior to In A Silent Way or Mwandishi Wink
And now I've just alienated the jazz enthusiasts Confused

Edited by Bosh66 - October 03 2012 at 07:58
Back to Top
irrelevant View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 07 2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 13382 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 07:47
Originally posted by Bosh66 Bosh66 wrote:

Originally posted by irrelevant irrelevant wrote:

Originally posted by Bosh66 Bosh66 wrote:


What I'm not suggesting here is tagging albums by style or sub-genre. That's altogether a more complex discussion.

But tagging would be more useful IMO. 
I know many agree. I worry it would be messy and require a major over-haul of the site. I'm open to the idea, but it is a different argument.

Unfortunately that's probably the only reason it hasn't been implemented, the major overhaul factor. 

Also according to the site, to be included in the database, an artist only needs one album of fully prog material anyway. 
Correct, but that doesn't always work in practice. There's a legitimate concern I think that by including certain bands (not just the ones suggested by me) on the site the front page would be swamped with reviews for Mechanix or Lovedrive and that the site would feel less of a prog site as a result. Hence my suggestion for restricting the discography of these bands.

Hmm, good point. I mean it's all well and good if one completely new to the site comes to the front page knowing all about prog, seeing non-prog albums in the review section and knowing they aren't prog, you don't want to give people the wrong idea. Which is why I think the tagging system is ideal. 
New album!
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385
Back to Top
thellama73 View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 07:41
It is a little annoying that albums like Kind Of Blue end up at the top of the Jazz Rock/Fusion charts when there's nothing fusion about them.
Back to Top
Bosh66 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 23 2009
Location: Bolton, Lancs
Status: Offline
Points: 528 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2012 at 07:31
Originally posted by irrelevant irrelevant wrote:

Originally posted by Bosh66 Bosh66 wrote:


What I'm not suggesting here is tagging albums by style or sub-genre. That's altogether a more complex discussion.

But tagging would be more useful IMO. 
I know many agree. I worry it would be messy and require a major over-haul of the site. I'm open to the idea, but it is a different argument.

Also according to the site, to be included in the database, an artist only needs one album of fully prog material anyway. 
Correct, but that doesn't always work in practice. There's a legitimate concern I think that by including certain bands (not just the ones suggested by me) on the site the front page would be swamped with reviews for Mechanix or Lovedrive and that the site would feel less of a prog site as a result. Hence my suggestion for restricting the discography of these bands.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.159 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.