| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
The Bearded Bard 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 24 2012
Location: Behind the Sun
Status: Offline
Points: 12859
|
 Topic: Should Art Rock Be A Sub-Genre On PA?
Posted: June 20 2012 at 15:49 |
|
The red zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the white zone.
|
|
|
 |
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: June 20 2012 at 13:11 |
|
The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the red zone.
|
|
What?
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19552
|
Posted: June 20 2012 at 13:01 |
Please Ancient Tree
Proto Prog and Prog Related are not, never were and will never be part of Art Rock.
I believe this is clear enough 
Iván
|
|
|
|
Icarium
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34055
|
Posted: June 20 2012 at 12:41 |
|
or a tree
|
|
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: June 20 2012 at 12:33 |
I might just as well be talking to a brick wall.
|
|
What?
|
|
Ancient Tree
Forum Groupie
Joined: June 19 2012
Location: EU
Status: Offline
Points: 109
|
Posted: June 20 2012 at 12:27 |
 Kotro wrote:
Art Rock used to be a sub-genre on PA, but it was decided to split it into Heavy, Crossover, Ecletic, Proto-Prog and Prog-Related. |
there's your answer 
|
|
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19552
|
Posted: June 20 2012 at 11:00 |
Dean wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Dean wrote:
someone_else wrote:
Dean wrote:
Kotro wrote:
Art Rock used to be a sub-genre on PA, but it was decided to split it into Heavy, Crossover, Ecletic, Proto-Prog and Prog-Related. |
More accurately: Art Rock was split it into Heavy, Crossover, Ecletic, Prog-Related and "Not Needed on the Voyage". Proto Prog was never "Art Rock" |
As far as I can remember: Proto-Prog and Prog Related were already there before Art Rock was split up. Art Rock was divided into Heavy, Crossover and Eclectic Prog. |
Long before that Prog Related was split out from Art Rock if my memory serves me correctly. It's been mentioned before and it will take me forever to find the relevant quotes. Proto Prog was never part of "Art Rock" but Prog Related was. |
I tend to remember it as someone else does.... Proto and Related existed before the spilt of Art Rock
But does it matter nowadays??? |
Of course they existed before the split, but that's not what I said.
Before November 2005 many of the artists that were in Prog Related after that date (Peter Gabriel, 801, Alan Parsons, etc.) were in Art Rock.... in essence Prog Related was created from Art Rock.
However, it does not matter at all.
|
To complement what Dean rightly said:
- In the early days of Prog, Art Rock was just another name top call the genre.
- Before Prog Related was created Art Rock was the equivalent to Prog Related, and as a fact it was like that everywhere
GEPR wrote:
The very border of progressive music in which more commercial styles of music were created at a different angle. Not quite progressive but almost.Bands |
- Then we made Art Rock Change on august 30, 2006, with this definition:
| ART ROCK
Not
a sub-genre “per se”, more a category; being that bands included in Art Rock
may have very few things in common other than the fact that they are all 100%
Progressive Rock.
The term Art Rock has evolved from being a synonym of Progressive Rock in the
early 70's to being considered the borderline between Progressive Rock and
mainstream in the 90's. However, the term changed again with the new century
and these are the characteristics of the bands that will be included in this
category:
- 100% Prog bands
- Bands that are beyond the limits of the sub-genre
parameters or
- Bands that have evolved through their career so
much that they crossed different sub-genres without any single sub-genre
being preeminent over the rest or
- Bands that have characteristics of two or more
different sub-genres and can’t be reasonably classified in either or
- Bands that simply are one of a kind and for that
reason can’t be included as part of any sub-genre.
The main difference with Prog-Related is that in this second category the bands
included are not career Prog bands or are simply non Prog bands that have
influenced or been influenced by the genre.
Prog Archives accepts that it’s a very generic category but we believe it is
necessary to avoid creating an endless number of sub-genres for each eclectic
band that appears.
Iván Melgar Morey - Perú |
- When Micky and Raff left the Symphonic Team, they took care of Art Rock and being that the genre was incredibly big, they asked to split it into - Crossover
- Heavy Prog
- Eclectic
That's the story of Art Rock in PA till now, and i hope we don't resurrect it, because it was always ambiguous.
Iván
|
|
|
|
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20273
|
Posted: June 20 2012 at 08:48 |
Dean wrote:
However, it does not matter at all.
|
Indeed
|
|
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: June 20 2012 at 06:58 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Dean wrote:
someone_else wrote:
Dean wrote:
Kotro wrote:
Art Rock used to be a sub-genre on PA, but it was decided to split it into Heavy, Crossover, Ecletic, Proto-Prog and Prog-Related. |
More accurately: Art Rock was split it into Heavy, Crossover, Ecletic, Prog-Related and "Not Needed on the Voyage". Proto Prog was never "Art Rock" |
As far as I can remember: Proto-Prog and Prog Related were already there before Art Rock was split up. Art Rock was divided into Heavy, Crossover and Eclectic Prog. |
Long before that Prog Related was split out from Art Rock if my memory serves me correctly. It's been mentioned before and it will take me forever to find the relevant quotes. Proto Prog was never part of "Art Rock" but Prog Related was. |
I tend to remember it as someone else does.... Proto and Related existed before the spilt of Art Rock
But does it matter nowadays??? |
Of course they existed before the split, but that's not what I said.
Before November 2005 many of the artists that were in Prog Related after that date (Peter Gabriel, 801, Alan Parsons, etc.) were in Art Rock.... in essence Prog Related was created from Art Rock.
However, it does not matter at all.
Edited by Dean - June 20 2012 at 07:31
|
|
What?
|
|
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20273
|
Posted: June 20 2012 at 06:41 |
Dean wrote:
someone_else wrote:
Dean wrote:
Kotro wrote:
Art Rock used to be a sub-genre on PA, but it was decided to split it into Heavy, Crossover, Ecletic, Proto-Prog and Prog-Related. |
More accurately: Art Rock was split it into Heavy, Crossover, Ecletic, Prog-Related and "Not Needed on the Voyage". Proto Prog was never "Art Rock" |
As far as I can remember: Proto-Prog and Prog Related were already there before Art Rock was split up. Art Rock was divided into Heavy, Crossover and Eclectic Prog. |
Long before that Prog Related was split out from Art Rock if my memory serves me correctly. It's been mentioned before and it will take me forever to find the relevant quotes. Proto Prog was never part of "Art Rock" but Prog Related was. |
I tend to remember it as someone else does.... Proto and Related existed before the spilt of Art Rock
But does it matter nowadays???
infocat wrote:
One person's opinion. The following sub-genres should be axed; or made into sub-sub-genres. I foresee the following:
RIO/Avant-Prog - Rename Avant Prog. RIO is a sub-sub-genre.
Krautrock - Merge mostly into Psychedelic/Space Rock; maybe some Avant Prog.
Rock Progressivo Italiano - Merge mostly into Symphonic Prog.
Zeuhl - Merge mostly into Avant Prog.
Canterbury Scene - Split out as appropriate! This was never really a genre. As the name indicates, it was a "scene".
Indo-Prog/Raga Rock - Prog Folk? I have no idea...
Neo-Prog - Merge into Symphonic Prog and some Crossover Prog.
Interestingly enough I think having the three metal groups split as they are is appropriate.
|
This is an interestting idea (one that I'd advocate, along with less restrictive genre definitions/descriptions in order to be more inclusive), but this would upset greatly some private property owners, who would have to share their gardened fences... Sadly (very sadly), that's a no-no for many!!
Edited by Sean Trane - June 20 2012 at 06:48
|
|
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
smartpatrol
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 15 2012
Location: My Bedroom
Status: Offline
Points: 14169
|
Posted: June 19 2012 at 02:14 |
Textbook wrote:
You know where Branca would fit right in?
Art Rock.
MAKE IT SO Please? |
He's more of avant-classical with a dash of art rock
|
|
Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65289
|
Posted: June 19 2012 at 01:51 |
|
Yes I get it, what I'm saying is tagging systems are musicologically incorrect when they individually tag albums -- RYM is wrong, and the more tags they allow thrown on the wronger they shall be.
Edited by Atavachron - June 19 2012 at 01:54
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: June 19 2012 at 01:48 |
Atavachron wrote:
Dean wrote:
Your examples are perfectly correct David. However, (there's always a "however"), The Wall isn't Psyche/Space Rock, War Child isn't Folk Rock, Hergest Ridge isn't Crossover Prog and Heritage isn't Tech/Extreme Metal. |
Again, my point; though The Wall may not be Psych/Space, Pink Floyd are (sorry to Floydheads, but they were Psych Rock that got arty, and were to the end); though Warchild (not to mention Minstrel) is not folkrock, essentially Jethro Tull are, or were for a very, very long and formative time; don't know Hergest Ridge so I can't speak to it.
|
Sorry, but I'm not sure what your point is then David -If JT are tagged as Prog Folk as their Main subgenre and their albums are tagged as Prog Folk, Symphonic, Heavy Prog as appropropriate then surely that covers all exceptions and annomolies. JT would remain in Prog Folk even if the majority of their albums didn't carry a Prog Folk tag, just as Genesis would remain in Symphonic and Pink Floyd would remain in Psyche/Space. Album tagging won't change the artists subgenre placement, it will reduce the number of XXX should be in YYY arguments and reduce the number of contentious band-moves.
|
|
What?
|
|
Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65289
|
Posted: June 19 2012 at 01:30 |
Dean wrote:
Your examples are perfectly correct David. However, (there's always a "however"), The Wall isn't Psyche/Space Rock, War Child isn't Folk Rock, Hergest Ridge isn't Crossover Prog and Heritage isn't Tech/Extreme Metal. |
Again, my point; though The Wall may not be Psych/Space, Pink Floyd are (sorry to Floydheads, but they were Psych Rock that got arty, and were to the end); though Warchild (not to mention Minstrel) is not folkrock, essentially Jethro Tull are, or were for a very, very long and formative time; don't know Hergest Ridge so I can't speak to it.
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19552
|
Posted: June 18 2012 at 23:36 |
Dean wrote:
Your examples are perfectly correct David. However, (there's always a "however"), The Wall isn't Psyche/Space Rock, War Child isn't Folk Rock, Hergest Ridge isn't Crossover Prog and Heritage isn't Tech/Extreme Metal. |
That's why I believe we should allow one or two teams to try multi tagging, they can even ask other teams for advise when there's any doubt.
We were ready with HT and Guigo to do this, because together we had heard most albums in Symphonic and at least one album from each band each one of us, but I'm sure that Scott and Fritz can make the job with me.
Iván
|
|
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: June 18 2012 at 23:25 |
|
Your examples are perfectly correct David. However, (there's always a "however"), The Wall isn't Psyche/Space Rock, War Child isn't Folk Rock, Hergest Ridge isn't Crossover Prog and Heritage isn't Tech/Extreme Metal.
|
|
What?
|
|
Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65289
|
Posted: June 18 2012 at 23:14 |
Textbook wrote:
Atavachron: RYM categories every album individually by genre and I think it works just fine. There are primary tags and secondary tags for each record. Let's look at Paul Simon's Graceland: Its primary tags are pop rock and singer/songwriter because the album mostly inhabits this world, but it has secondary tags of world music, mbagang, zydeco and folk rock for featuring significant elements of these styles. While the primary/secondary multiple tag approach is a LOT of work, it is ultimately much more satisfying than saying PAUL SIMON IS FOLK ROCK THAT'S IT NOTHING ELSE. |
But that's my point; tagging Graceland or Simon as world, zydeco or even folkrock is simply incorrect. It might be fun for the taggers, but it's a bunch of nonsense otherwise. George Harrison did not play Indian music, Prince doesn't do Psychedelic Rock, and Yngwie doesn't play classical, regardless of any experiments with those formats.
|
|
Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
|
Posted: June 18 2012 at 22:55 |
Progressive hip-hop exists mostly in theory for now, but it probably will exist as an actual genre one day. There is a scattering of artists you could call progressive hip-hop (El-P's new album Cure For Cancer concludes with a full-blown progressive rap song) but enough to build a genre around. It would never exist as a genre on here regardless due to entrenched snobbery. Atavachron: RYM categories every album individually by genre and I think it works just fine. There are primary tags and secondary tags for each record. Let's look at Paul Simon's Graceland: Its primary tags are pop rock and singer/songwriter because the album mostly inhabits this world, but it has secondary tags of world music, mbagang, zydeco and folk rock for featuring significant elements of these styles. While the primary/secondary multiple tag approach is a LOT of work, it is ultimately much more satisfying than saying PAUL SIMON IS FOLK ROCK THAT'S IT NOTHING ELSE. Geneys: Allow me to do that properly Pimp Crimson Yes Ya'll Genidiss Pimp Floyd Rush Groove
|
|
geneyesontle
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 14 2012
Location: Quebec
Status: Offline
Points: 1266
|
Posted: June 18 2012 at 20:50 |
colorofmoney91 wrote:
All in favor of progressive hip-hop?
|
Bands like King CRUN-DMC, Pink Flo Rida, GeNAS, YesEminem and RUSH 50 Cent were formed as we are talking about that.
|
|
Poseidon wants to Acquire the Taste of the Fragile Lamb
- Derek Adrian Gabriel Anderson, singer of the band Geneyesontle
|
|
Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65289
|
Posted: June 18 2012 at 20:15 |
|
The assumption that tagging albums is better than tagging artists is erroneous, and the notion that someone is confused or put off to find, say, Duke as part of a Symph band's catalog is also presumptuous. People get it; they see that PA classes bands by general musical history and understand this may include material not traditionally thought of a 'This' or 'That'. Pop artists go in different directions too; would you categorize Graceland or Paul Simon as being partly "World Music" or "African Vocal" just because of a single record ?. Certainly not, that would be silly, inaccurate, and not helpful at all.
Edited by Atavachron - June 18 2012 at 20:33
|
|
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Should Art Rock Be A Sub-Genre On PA?
