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oliverstoned 
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 Topic: Vinyl vs CD
Posted: April 25 2005 at 01:52 |
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Disagree
Even the low quality vynils are better than CD.
Cause Cd doesnt't works at all.
And this is not Karnevil who will tell the contrary.
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marktheshark
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Joined: April 24 2005
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Posted: April 24 2005 at 18:37 |
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I know it's been a good while since anybody has posted here on this subject, but since I'm a newbie, what the hell. This is a topic I love to discuss.
During the 70s and early 80s, standard vinyls were getting really bad in quality. The vinyl itself was of cheap grade, easily scratched and warped easily too. And worst of all, the record companies were using 2nd or even 3rd generation tape copies to press them with. It wasn't 'til companies like Mobile Fidelity and Nautilus that produced the "audiophile LP" that finally wised-up and did something about this downgrade in quality by using only the original studio master tapes and high density Japanese vinyl to press these.
It is these and only these vinyls I would put over CDs. I still got my Mobile Fidelity vinyl collection which I don't play, just the analog cassette and reel-to-reel tapes I made of them on the 1st play. So there still in near mint-shape after 25 years.
By the way, I still got a sealed unopened copy of Mobile Fidelity's release of Dark Side of the Moon and I'll just might take bids on this one. Just let me know what you all think it's worth.
Thanks, Mark
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oliverstoned
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Posted: April 13 2005 at 11:39 |
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Yes, CD is a predictable product.
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Posted: April 13 2005 at 10:56 |
 oliverstoned wrote:
"I need the integrity of digital."
False.
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When I spoke of the integrity of digital, I meant the constant 'sameness' of the sound recording, not the actual quality of it. I just meant that I could listen to the music over and over and over again and not worry about it wearing out. I need that kind of durability if I am trying to learn the parts to a song.
BTW, I found Tarkus on 180 gram vinyl for $20 USD!! I nabbed that sucker right up. Other 180 gram stuff is usuall $35- $40.
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oliverstoned
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Posted: April 13 2005 at 02:23 |
goose wrote:
There are different kinds of integrity. At least when you have a digital copy of something, you know that's the way it stays and you know you can copy it, play it as much as you like, lend it to someone else etc. and it will remain the same. Maybe that's not always a good thing, but in most situations it's an advantage.
While I have come to agree that vinyl is quite probably better sounding than CD (I don't have high quality equipment or records to convince myself, but one day..!) there must come a point when digital technologies will be indistinguishable from analogue ones - no one in the world could tell the difference between an analogue signal and a digital one sampling a million times a second at a bit depth of a million (all other things being equal) - while everyone's cut off point for transparency will differ dramatically, there will be a point for everyone. I think the best policy to adopt is to try and improve digital technologies to get them as close as possible to emulate true analogue sounds so we can also use the advantages that digital recording has. |
The first point is the wear of the vynil or tape.
If you have good equipement and manipulate your vynil/tape with care, the wear is very low.
Anyway, it will always be better than CD, cause the gap
is too big.
Second, unfortunatly, numeric technology will never fill the gap with analog.
And today 24 bits technology proves it: it doesn't work!
The pb with numeric is that it's very complex: very hard to make a good converter, whereas turntable is just precision mechanic.
Anyway, there are always be informations missing with numeric technology.
Karnavil, yes Accuphase has a not too bad big CD/SACD player.
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Posted: April 12 2005 at 19:41 |
goose wrote:
There are different kinds of integrity. At least when you have a digital copy of something, you know that's the way it stays and you know you can copy it, play it as much as you like, lend it to someone else etc. and it will remain the same. Maybe that's not always a good thing, but in most situations it's an advantage.
While I have come to agree that vinyl is quite probably better sounding than CD (I don't have high quality equipment or records to convince myself, but one day..!) there must come a point when digital technologies will be indistinguishable from analogue ones - no one in the world could tell the difference between an analogue signal and a digital one sampling a million times a second at a bit depth of a million (all other things being equal) - while everyone's cut off point for transparency will differ dramatically, there will be a point for everyone. I think the best policy to adopt is to try and improve digital technologies to get them as close as possible to emulate true analogue sounds so we can also use the advantages that digital recording has.
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Only CD player i ever had that sounded like record was an accuphase.
But you miss the joy of vinyl,hands on & all that.
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goose
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Joined: June 20 2004
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Posted: April 12 2005 at 15:43 |
There are different kinds of integrity. At least when you have a digital copy of something, you know that's the way it stays and you know you can copy it, play it as much as you like, lend it to someone else etc. and it will remain the same. Maybe that's not always a good thing, but in most situations it's an advantage.
While I have come to agree that vinyl is quite probably better sounding than CD (I don't have high quality equipment or records to convince myself, but one day..!) there must come a point when digital technologies will be indistinguishable from analogue ones - no one in the world could tell the difference between an analogue signal and a digital one sampling a million times a second at a bit depth of a million (all other things being equal) - while everyone's cut off point for transparency will differ dramatically, there will be a point for everyone. I think the best policy to adopt is to try and improve digital technologies to get them as close as possible to emulate true analogue sounds so we can also use the advantages that digital recording has.
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oliverstoned
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Posted: April 12 2005 at 11:46 |
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"I need the integrity of digital."
False.
You can talk about the vynil integrity, but not the contrary.
First, CD is so bad in the high compare to vynil, that you can't talk about integrity.
Second, numeric sound is trafficked, bumped in order to compensate numeric natural thiness...whereas analog (vynil) is natural, neutral, really dynamic, but it requires "superior" equipement, as you said.
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oliverstoned
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Posted: April 12 2005 at 10:56 |
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"Vinyl is better--if it is new and used on superior equipment"
True.
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Posted: April 12 2005 at 10:55 |
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Vinyl is better--if it is new and used on superior equipment. However, because it wears out, I have to go with CDs. I listen to my music a lot because that is how I figure out guitar parts. I need the integrity of digital.
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Logos
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Joined: March 08 2005
Location: Finland
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Posted: April 12 2005 at 09:10 |
The sound of vinyl may or may not be better than CD.
But I just ain't a vinyl person, I'm not careful or patient enough to
keep them in good shape, so it's better just to keep with CDs.
I still like to listen to a vinyl every now and then. As long as it's not my own. 
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oliverstoned
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Posted: April 12 2005 at 08:10 |
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"WBT is silver solder silver is ok but has been proven to break down over the years,if it not correctly applied this is a problem too."
I don't mind
only sound counts
and don't be vulgar with me please
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Posted: April 12 2005 at 08:08 |
oliverstoned wrote:
As you see, i'm not a hifi snob, anyway i have a low budget as i'm young.
Yes, i have a Nad on Cd, cause i don't want to invest more in digital.
Price means nothing, of course i know there are better speakers and Cd player than what i have.
But for the price...ther's not!
Your system seems to be quite good...
What's your turntable?
Idon't understand what you said about wbt solder...
WBT is the absolute reference!!!
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Oliver stop being an arse for a while & don't try telling me about hi-fi i'm older & have been selling it probably longer than you've been into it.
My turntable is the Pink triangle/Helius.
I will try & get you a live picture
WBT is silver solder silver is ok but has been proven to break down over the years,if it not correctly applied this is a problem too.
US 'IAR WONDER SOLDER' Has absolutly no lead content,sounds better than silver solder & melts at a low temp.I suggest you get some.
that has the SME fitted though.
Edited by Karnevil9
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oliverstoned
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Posted: April 12 2005 at 07:59 |
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As you see, i'm not a hifi snob, anyway i have a low budget as i'm young.
Yes, i have a Nad on Cd, cause i don't want to invest more in digital.
Price means nothing, of course i know there are better speakers and Cd player than what i have.
But for the price...ther's not!
Your system seems to be quite good...
What's your turntable?
Idon't understand what you said about wbt solder...
WBT is the absolute reference!!!
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Posted: April 12 2005 at 07:50 |
oliverstoned wrote:
You make me laugh
You're not a real audiophile:
You don't have good cables (interconnect+power)
You don't have separate electric lines
I suppose you don't use power isolation filters
I suspect you to lie about what you have "Yes, i must have a relaxa plate somewhere...", when you say you have a 10b, sequerra day, etc...
I'm afraid about knowing what is your real system.
Here's mine (real):
Nad c520 CD player
Tuner Denon (wants to upgrade to a Mac MR67)
K7 deck Studer A701 (wants to upgrade to a Naka 1000zxl)
Preamp Kora triode (tube preamp)
Amplifier Jolida 302 with special tubes
Speaker Mision M71i srew on Atacama Nexus 7 filled with sand, with 7 kgs of weight on each.
Subwoofer Magnat Omega 380 with 100 kg of weight on it.
Power cables: Eupen
Interconnect: Esoteric Audio Tech3i for modulation
(540€ per meter with wbt topline rca)+Esoteric audio Accupath hp (150 € per meter).
For HP cables, i have bicable+double the low freq cable, which makes 3 cables per speaker!
3 electric separated lines for my system+power filters for preamp and source; double filtering on analog source and triple on CD.
Metz FM antenna
All is soldered with WBT silver solder.
Vibration cancellers:Fadel amethyst, golden sound cones, sicomin plates.
I'm gonna make a big upgrade on my Jolida soon by passing the source selector (transform it into a pure power amp), and replacing all the connect by WBT topline connect. I'll do it for my speakrs too. |
Oliver what the hell are you talking about
I've explained i buy & sell hi-fi & have huge socks at a time which gives me a lucky opportunity to swap & change alot.
I do have a relaxa table actually & if you'd like to know i pulled it out yesterday for a customer.
If you don't believe me thats you problem i'll sleep.
Don't ever call me lying because as i read your posts you contradict yourself a lot your the liying little bastard.
Some of that gear you have is utter wank.
& by the way dont use WBT silver solder cos as reaserch & practice tells me it's not good & will break down in time regardless of it being silver.IAR Wonder solder from US is the best sounding solder.
Your system with the NAD DENON MISSION is load grade tosh.No signs of you sh*t deck there?
MAIN SYSTEM AT THE MOMENT:
PINK TRIANGLE 'ANNIVERSARY/HELIUS 'ORION/DYNAVECTOR'XX2'MC
AUDIO REASERCH 'SP9' TUBE PRE
KRELL 'KSA100' POWER AMPS'(I HAVE SOME OLD CLASS'E AMPS COMING IN SO WILL GO)
SONUS FABRE 'CREMONIS' SPEAKERS.
ALL CABLES ARE KIMBER 'SELECT KS1021'
RATA MAINS FURIFIERS & CLAMPS & MAINS CABLES.
Funny enough i have an old pair of ARC 101 louspeakers from the early '80's & sound miles better than the Sonus Fabers
Edited by Karnevil9
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oliverstoned
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Posted: April 12 2005 at 02:27 |
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You make me laugh
You're not a real audiophile:
You don't have good cables (interconnect+power)
You don't have separate electric lines
I suppose you don't use power isolation filters
I suspect you to lie about what you have "Yes, i must have a relaxa plate somewhere...", when you say you have a 10b, sequerra day, etc...
I'm afraid about knowing what is your real system.
Here's mine (real):
Nad c520 CD player
Tuner Denon (wants to upgrade to a Mac MR67)
K7 deck Studer A701 (wants to upgrade to a Naka 1000zxl)
Preamp Kora triode (tube preamp)
Amplifier Jolida 302 with special tubes
Speaker Mision M71i srew on Atacama Nexus 7 filled with sand, with 7 kgs of weight on each.
Subwoofer Magnat Omega 380 with 100 kg of weight on it.
Power cables: Eupen
Interconnect: Esoteric Audio Tech3i for modulation
(540€ per meter with wbt topline rca)+Esoteric audio Accupath hp (150 € per meter).
For HP cables, i have bicable+double the low freq cable, which makes 3 cables per speaker!
3 electric separated lines for my system+power filters for preamp and source; double filtering on analog source and triple on CD.
Metz FM antenna
All is soldered with WBT silver solder.
Vibration cancellers:Fadel amethyst, golden sound cones, sicomin plates.
I'm gonna make a big upgrade on my Jolida soon by passing the source selector (transform it into a pure power amp), and replacing all the connect by WBT topline connect. I'll do it for my speakrs too.
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Posted: April 11 2005 at 16:55 |
oliverstoned wrote:
Forget hifi furnitures!
It's expensive, doesn't works and add vibrations!
There's nothing like a massive wood furniture, but the best is to put your devices on the floor (with a good floor)with vibration canceller below, of course.
Each kind of device needs a specific kind of vibration canceller.
Example: for tubes amps, very vulnerable to vibrations, the best is steel triangles with points.
It tightens the low freq and enlightens everything. |
Duh?
I was just showing the Townshend isolation on a rack thats all.
Well all know racks are wank
Why do i bother?
Oliver i bet you've got a little wank system living in a dream that your constantly reading about
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oliverstoned
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Posted: April 11 2005 at 14:22 |
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Here's the vibration canceller system is use below my Kora tube preamp:
3 Ceramic "golden sound" cones + Sicomin plate (french product), which is a "vibration's sponge" made of carbon/kevlar.
On this plate,just below the preamp, i add a set of 3
amethyst" which is a system with steel or Teflon balls
(steel improves dynamic whereas teflon improves "timbres").
So it makes a total of three differents system, so a triple
isolation.
The result is excellent, but Relaxa system is even better.
Another essential point for "turning machines" like CD drive and vynil turntable is the horizontality.
You have to check it with a plumb level in the two dimensions and compensate with a fix sytem made of pieces of wood (forget soft matters which are not good for vib' evacuation), in order that your Cd player or turntable is perfectly horizontal.
It's essential, like to have as many electric lines than
devices!
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oliverstoned
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Posted: April 11 2005 at 14:13 |
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Forget hifi furnitures!
It's expensive, doesn't works and add vibrations!
There's nothing like a massive wood furniture, but the best is to put your devices on the floor (with a good floor)with vibration canceller below, of course.
Each kind of device needs a specific kind of vibration canceller.
Example: for tubes amps, very vulnerable to vibrations, the best is steel triangles with points.
It tightens the low freq and enlightens everything.
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Posted: April 11 2005 at 08:38 |
oliverstoned wrote:
Thanks forthat technical description
For those who don't know, this system is in magnetic levitation, like the japanese train, which gives a total immunity to vibrations.
i don't trust hifi reviews cause here in France, there are very bad.
American reviews are better.
Your "What hifi" is not bad.
This is experiment that learn me that this vibration canceller system is the best (for many devices: most sources, preamp...) |
Opposing magnetic poles.As you know when you connect two opposing poles they will obviously try pushing away hence the alignment pins in each of the two corners.This is how this table works,your gear is floating in mid air.The only contact the top & base have with each other is the pins edge,being circular its virtually non touching as it's too small a contact area to even measure.
I do prefer the Townshend 'Siesmic' sink' simular principle but is isolated by air balls,seems to add morelower frequency & depth to the music.
Here it is incorporated into the top & bottom design of there rack
Regarding ''What hi-fi'' i think you'll find it the worse magazine we have ever had.
''Hi-Fi news & record review'' was our top magazine for years,but all the same never read reviews & that goes for album reviews too.
Edited by Karnevil9
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Vinyl vs CD
