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Dean 
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
 Topic: Reconsidering StratovariusPosted: March 30 2013 at 03:36 |
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Dave, if you had read the posts in this thread before you did a Lazarus on it then we would not be having this conversation. My exasperation is that every time you return to this site you drag-up this dead horse for another beating.
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What?
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DamoXt7942
Special Collaborator
Joined: October 15 2008 Location: Okayama, Japan Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: March 30 2013 at 03:30 |
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sukmytoe
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: March 18 2013 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 291 |
Posted: March 30 2013 at 02:29 |
 That's a loud and extreme statement to make Dean - I'll tell you what to do - google the words Stratovarius and progressive together and see what you come up with. This topic is probably the only one where you and I are in total disagreement however PA is not my site and neither am I anything like a decision maker here so accordingly I cannot but suggest a change of thinking. I'm going to let this rest because obviously I can't win here however you state that they aren't progressive and I say that they are. One of us is wrong and the other is right but it would be arrogant of me to beleve that I have a greater music theory understanding than you do and so I don't state or believe that. Strat will stay in the progressive side of my collection to me and you can keep it wherever you like to presuming you have any of their albums. Let's just say that Strat music is damn good and leave it at that and then we will be in agreement about something relating to them.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 29 2013 at 19:02 |
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Oh for f##k's sake, not again. *sigh*
THEY'RE NOT PROGRESSIVE ROCK DAVE - GET OVER IT AND MOVE ON.
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Windhawk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 28 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 11401 |
Posted: March 29 2013 at 17:37 |
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I'll have to disagree with you there. Alice Cooper not the best example to pull out either I'd say - The Amboy Dukes would have been a better one for that line of argument. Still, it's not my decision nor is it yours. Those who make the decisions have decided, and until the situation changes radically this discussion is just a waste of forum space. Whatever you, I or anyone else has to say in the matter will be of no consequence whatsoever until time have passed, most likely quite a lot of it.
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
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sukmytoe
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2013 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 291 |
Posted: March 29 2013 at 17:18 |
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Windhawk - I hear you but if PA applied that rigidity throughout a lot of what has been included here on PA and in fact is being included would never have succeeded or would never succeed in future. We have a recipe for what is prog music being the definition of progressive rock music as PA sees it and if music fits that then to me it is prog music relating to PA. Whether you, I or anyone else likes it Stratovarius meet that definition - the only way around that is to change the definition as we see it. There is a world of difference between standard metal music and Stratovarius. If I look at the standards that you set - then why is Alice Cooper not here? Influential? In Spades. Groundbreaking at inception? Hell yeah. My thinking relating to Alice Cooper does not vector from todays standards but would I have called him prog back when he released Billion Dollor Babies, Killers, From the Inside etc - most definately. Would I like to see him here - I don't know about that. Would I have called Strat prog when they released Elements? Hell yeah. Would I like to see them here - Hell yeah.
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
Posted: March 29 2013 at 16:42 |
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Very nice post Olav
 Another dead horse being beaten is the proposition of individual prog albums from non-prog artists being added to the database....
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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Windhawk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 28 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 11401 |
Posted: March 29 2013 at 16:33 |
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Heh, even I feel that this is a dead horse that should be saved from further torment. For those who know me a bit, that should speak volumes.
The vids posted at the start of the thread further cemented my view really. Yeah, they've got a thing for grandiose arrangements and yeah they are fond of mellow interludes and ambient inserts. But this isn't structurally advanced in any manner, and at the core of the compositions all along are steady, predictable rhythms and patterns that doesn't really offer anything truly adventurous or beyond the scope of what is fairly common. I wouldn't have objected at seeing them in prog-related, as they have structural elements, effects as well as arrangements that does reach beyond what is common in mainstream metal. But they started out about a decade too late to make a viable case for inclusion in that part of the database. They aren't innovators in their chosen field when utilizing those approaches nor can they be described as influential towards the development of progressive music per se when being slightly proggy or arty beyond being a popular entity in their own right. Perhaps in 20 or 30 years, if numerous artists performing what is then regarded as progressive metal/rock describe them as a seminal influence, that this might be a case for further consideration. Or if they release several purebred indisputable prog albums later on. For this band just one album wouldn't suffice I suspect, as there are quite a few other bands around with one undisputed prog album to their name not a part of the database here due to their plentiful mainstream releases. |
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 18016 |
Posted: March 29 2013 at 16:09 |
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You think the fact that many people think they don't belong here but they keep getting suggested reveals that they are progressive? I don't follow.
For me they sound exactly the same as every other generic power metal band, none of which I would consider prog at all.
The biggest difference is a community that isn't sh*t |
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sukmytoe
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2013 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 291 |
Posted: March 29 2013 at 16:01 |
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For me it is simple - what music takes me on a journey? Pop music doesn't, standard rock or metal doesn't. Strat does, often. Off centre or uncommon rythm structures, rythm tempo changes, compositional direction changes, the full on keyboard usage, the ability of the musicians with their instruments - those things by our own very defintion of prog on this site are flags to what is and what is not prog music and those things are very apparant in Strat's music. I have always included Strat in my own personal prog music section as opposed to putting them in metal, rock or pop because of the musical journey thing. I could easily listen to a number of their standard tracks and write them off as a pure power metal band however there are the tracks that say very much otherwise for example those on the Elements albums and a number of their other tracks e.g Destiny. I'm not necessarily pushing for them to be included under the prog metal but I would like to see them represented here if only to allow many people here to make up their own minds. We do know that this is a controversial subject - the Strat one - and the only reason for that controversy is that the argument exists and holds water. If someone had to put them under prog related I wouldn't cry about that - I purely believe that they should have a showing on PA.
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
Posted: March 29 2013 at 08:23 |
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I honestly don't hear it. Keyboards infused in metal don't necessarily equate prog.
This sounds like power metal to me - not in the vicinity of prog imho. Sorry but that's how I feel - and I've listened to all of the samples given in this thread.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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aapatsos
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 11 2005 Location: Manchester, UK Status: Offline Points: 9226 |
Posted: March 29 2013 at 07:24 |
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I will have another listen to the samples you provided above at some point
Another question to ask: how many PROG sites include Stratovarius?
I can see your point about Kamelot, not all their releases are representative of progressive metal but their beginnings were, so maybe that is another reason why thery are include here (I cannot speak for the team at the time, I just assume)
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sukmytoe
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2013 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 291 |
Posted: March 28 2013 at 01:47 |
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Earendil - if that were the case then it would open a whole new can of worms - being that there is an exclusion of a whole prog side to metal that certain entities here don't accept whereas they accept the opposite side to the Strat kind of music which again when listening to Strat they fullfill all of the laid down prog attributes posted on this very site for determining what is prog. Personally I have many "power metal" bands in my collection and they don't strike me as being progressive in terms of what I would like to see here represented on PA. It is too easy to listen to a lot of Strats material and dismiss them however a large percentage of their music is (whether you or I or anyone else likes it) prog music. Some of the more profound musical journeys that I have been taken on in my mind listening to music with my eyes closed have been driven on the Stratovarius bus). Certainly they have a lot of tracks that are pure power metal cheese however there is that large percentage of their tracks that fit, like a glove, prog metal. This is not coming from a Stratovarius fanboy by the way as I am a fanboy of a whole lot of prog music ranging from different genres within the prog sphere. I have and love the new Steven Wilson album, the new Comedy of Errors album and many many others from through the early 70's to date - so I'm not vectoring from the Strat fanboy arena - I'm a fanboy of prog music full stop. This is an easy connect the dots exercise to indulge in - look at what we ourselves here state is the recipe for prog music and then spool up just about any Stratovarius album and ignore the cheese tracks while listening to the prog tracks - and then make a judgement call. I could fill this page with examples of why Strat are prog but that would be an exercise that I don't really want to indulge in. I do sense a biase for the darker side of prog metal on this site and I personally do not like the darker side of prog metal (the growling type of sonic noise metal) however I would never say that that side of the spectrum isn't prog - why is the opposite being said to me then? It's easy to spool up the Stratovarius album of the same name and listen to the first three tracks and dismiss Strat as a prog metal band however then comes the monster track Back to Madness which kind of says whoa hold on there mate. The Stratovarius album of the same name is a bad example as looking at that whole album I personally would dismiss my own argument however there are many albums before and after that one that exude prog in spades. Edited by sukmytoe - March 28 2013 at 02:06 |
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Earendil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 17 2008 Location: Indiana, USA Status: Offline Points: 1584 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 20:35 |
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I've always thought they were one of the least progressive major power metal bands
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66588 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 19:59 |
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I have not heard their most recent albums, but would hope that members of the prog metal team have. I don't know on that. Unfortunately at this point, the addition of Strat falls under being a controversial band and it would take a unanimous vote by the members of the prog metal team to get them in. I suspect that unless it is so progressive that it makes Dream Theater blush that they won't unanimously change their minds.
We are usually told that a band can be re-evaluated if they release a new album after being rejected, so I guess I would hope that someone on that team would at least give the new album a listen to determine whether it is progressive enough in their minds to warrant another reconsideration on the band. That is really about it though.
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sukmytoe
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2013 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 291 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 19:26 |
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Rushfan4, since that time there have been a further 3 album releases by Strat so the argument that I see relating to the Easy Livin post relating to the fact that they have been considered and won't be included carries little weight with me. It in fact says what it says and that leads me to presume that the argument will always remain closed irrelevantly of what anyone now happens to say. By the very definition that I read on this site as to what prog music is I have a lack of understanding relating to what the real problem is when it comes down to Stratovarius. Hell, on the Elements track I pick up a flute aside from the various tempo changes and direction changes in the track itself.
I accept that some may percieve that Death Metal has prog elements, all I'm saying is that the non inclusion of what is obviously prog music by PA's own definition of what is on the other side of the prog metal spectrum is really not, to my mind, fair. My argument is not with you my friend, it is with the powers that be who I believe didn't make a wrong decision but maybe should review that decision properly.
I feel that the Strat argument has become, over time, a sticking point and it isn't only DavetheSlave who brought it up - prior to him there were the same arguments over time and after him others attempted to revive it with no joy. Looking back at all the Strat posts I do percieve a kind of stonewalling for whatever reason relating to the topic.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66588 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 19:04 |
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I can't speak for the prog metal team members so I don't know what each individual member considers when choosing to accept or exclude a band, but I respect that they were selected for the prog metal team based on their interest and knowledge of prog metal, and the site has entrusted them with the decision to accept or exclude the bands that they evaluate. That doesn't mean that I agree with every decision that they make, but it does mean that I respect their conclusions as being representative of their team and the site. Strat may meet my definition of progressive power metal, but for whatever their reasoning over the years Strat haven't met the various prog metal team members definition. They have been kind enough to evaluate them multiple times with different team members and have still reached that same conclusion.
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sukmytoe
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2013 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 291 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 18:27 |
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rushfan4 - I know that DavetheSlave had the deepest respect for you as he felt that you were one of the only members here not to take him to task regarding his request for Stratovarius's inclusion. I believe that things kind of got out of hand where he suggested that there was some other agenda relating to Strat's non inclusion but that was because he felt a complete non understanding relating to the argument and the direction that the whole thing went in. He felt stonewalled is how he put it to me.
My only question would be how intimately did those who voted against Strat look at their music and did they sit back and really listen. I note a strong metal movement here for the other side of the Strat coin being the really heavy tech metal / Death Metal scene and to those people who appreciate that Strat would be a red flag because that isn't what they do at all. The beat / tempo change thing in Strat's music, the different direction that many of the tracks take, the journey that those tracks take the listener on, the heavy use of keyboards - all those things as to our own recipe to what prog is are inherent in the music and that can't be denied.
How many tempo changes can you count here? This track on its own blows any arguments totally out of the water - how about I post links to another ten or so tracks to seal my side of the story?
What happen's at the point around 5.25 into the track? This isn't regarded by the powers that be here to be proggy?
Edited by sukmytoe - March 27 2013 at 18:54 |
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sukmytoe
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2013 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 291 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 18:15 |
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Hey aapatsos - I'm afraid that many outside of PA don't quite agree with that but everone has his or her own definition of what prog is. Strat include in their music all of the elements that our own recipe here for prog music contains. Those same people who voted anti Stratovarius voted yes to Kamelot? How did that happen? I enjoy Kamelot but the two bands are chalk and cheese when it comes down to prog elements in their music. I'm not one of those comparison guys who says that one is here how come not the other but relating to Strat there are many inclusions that may cause some to raise eyebrows when looking at Stratovarius and not just the Kamelot thing.
How many people have sat and analysed the above track properly - and that is one example.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66588 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 18:11 |
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This is my take on it.
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Reconsidering Stratovarius
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