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Textbook 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
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 Topic: Piracy
Posted: October 27 2010 at 20:26 |
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harmonium.ro
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Joined: August 18 2008
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 19:38 |
 Textbook wrote:
Except ticket sales to live shows are going through the floor, even reaching alltime lows, in some areas. |
I don't know where you've read that but the income from concerts has been growing constantly in the last years as far as I know (I did post some links to these statistics in other older threads).
Edited by harmonium.ro - October 27 2010 at 19:38
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
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Points: 4900
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 19:37 |
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Well, there's really nothing we can do about it other than do our part to support the acts we feel should be supported. This is the cost of technology. There's always a downside.
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Textbook
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 19:32 |
There's something else spooky going on that ties to this whole thing. People assumed that as physical sales fell, the industry would attempt to snatch back lost profits with increased touring, putting the emphasis back on gigs. A gig experience can't be downloaded right, so box office sales are golden, not going anywhere.
Except ticket sales to live shows are going through the floor, even reaching alltime lows, in some areas. Christina Aguilera, one of pop's biggest names, just had to cancel a complete summer tour due to a lack of interest.
What's going on there? Some people blame the recession but other analysts say this has been a gradually dawning thing- a lack of interest in the real experience. It's like how few young people today can understand why on earth you'd travel to a museum to see the real Mona Lisa when you can look at ten million pictures of it online. Physical experience used to have a sort of sacred aura around it that made it more real or better in some way but the digital generation are moving away from the notion and care less about seeing things live or in person. Experiencing them over the net is good enough.
So if no money from sales and no money from gigs, then the industry really is screwed. The upside is that the acts this will hurt the worst are the disposable pop acts only in it to make money who have casual fans who aren't really into the music that much and don't really care who's making it. More serious/underground artists hopefully will continue to attract more serious/hardcore music head fans through word of mouth on the internet, who are interested in supporting them and enabling them to keep producing music.
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topographicbroadways
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Joined: May 20 2010
Location: Australia
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Points: 5575
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 09:02 |
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great i finally found how to unsubscribe from a thread
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 08:59 |
fascinating
the thread is alive!
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 08:27 |
Gerinski wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
What you would then be describing is a failure of policy/protection not of your entrepreneurial decisions.
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Yes that's exactly what I am describing. What I'm saying is precisely that due to the nature of illegal file sharing, it's a bit naive to expect that legal protection alone will solve the musicians problems. I am not saying they should completely give up seeking for legal protection, I am simply suggesting that given how difficult this is in practice, they better work paralelly in trying to make legal music more attractive and competitive.
Having sid this, I believe that legal music is already reasonably competitive. If you are middle class living in a developed country, your net salary is likely to be around 10-15 euro per hour (for lazy ones, this is around 15-20 USD or 8-13 UK£). If you want to get a nice pirated CD with artwork etc, if you count the time you spend in searching, dowloading, burning, printing the artwork and cutting it, the cost of the blank CD and ink etc etc, at your hourly rate, you realise that it does not make much sense.
If original CD's would be priced consistently around 10 euro as maximum (which unfortunately is not always the case for non-mainstream music), when you compare that with what you have to pay nowadays for a drink in a central cafe in a big city, the price would be fairly reasonable and competitive against illegal downloads.
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I agree with you, but I was just making the point that more important is the breakdown on the protection end.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
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Points: 15784
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 08:25 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
^ LOL
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I'm glad you've rethought your position and now find it ridiculous.
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You are so wise.
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I'm aware.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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paganinio
Forum Senior Member
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Points: 1327
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 08:16 |
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RIAA officials spent three days doing one thing:
They read every word in this thread LMAO
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 18071
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Posted: October 26 2010 at 18:58 |
Dean wrote:
So, If I've got this right - the record companies are the real bad guys because they have been ripping off the artists for years, so ripping off the record companies is fair game. Surely that's a double rip-off for the artist.
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I first got a whiff of all this, surprisingly enough, via the Firesign Theater. Met one of their close friends who tried really hard to have them setup their own label and control their own work ... and this was in 1973 and 1974 .... and they were simply not able to do it, or did not think they could handle it and signed another contract ... that led them to obscurity even more!
And I have been a proponent since then of all these bands not waiting for a record company and do their own ... yes, there is always a fair amount you are losing but look at it on the bright side ... you are taking in more than you are losing.
I suppose that the end result of it all ... is a group of musicians learning that ... they can reap the most if they do it themselves ... and you know that there is always a percentage that is lost ... be it in the form of advertising, or you having to give out freebies to DJ's or some of the prog folks on the internet (both tax deductible by the way!!!!!!!!! got that?) and hoping they pay you ... but here is the issue ... if you want to stay on the "music" ... you don't want to pay attention to the accounting of those numbers and dollars ... fine ... make a friend of a kid in school learning accounting and give him meal money! ... anything ... to help ... but in the end, it is the issue of "accountability" and there is something to be said for the "old adage" of the artist spending his whole time in a studio painting a naked girl and getting inspired by the muse, the paint ... and the sex (of course) ... and the benefit of the work after it all is said and done ... but this is the 21st century ... and that "idea" and "process" is minimal these days and is almost coming to an end ... you can see it happening already, much more out in the open now, in the form of the meat market that it has become ... and no one is questioning its validity as "music" but I question its artistic validity, although I will say right now ... they have good accountants and ... this makes all the difference in the world.
So ... in the end ... do you want to live a dream? Or create your own dream?
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There are many ways in which people who "deserves to hear it" can hear it legally and without ripping off the artist: try the band website, MySpace page, search for it on LastFM radio or YouTube or get a free account on one of the legal streaming sites like Spotify where you can listen to 20 hours of new music every month. |
Bingo ... and if those artists do not want to be heard, they won't be there ... it's really simple!
The article and original comment, is, for all intents and purposes, quite lacking in the knowledge of the business and it is probably just trying to support one of their friends that is only getting 10 cents instead of a dollar monthly retainer from some place on the Internet. AND ... btw ... that's next. I have a friend in Las Vegas that has put together a web site for musicians and it has a counter that specifies the request and when and it lists the IP address ... and he mails that list out with the checks for the buys and sales.
When was the last time a record company did that for you? Btw ... he's on the way past 100G sales this year already and I'm told that hald of that was all royalties for the artists and 14k was equipment and rent of the office space ... and he took in a measly 36K on what amounted to a part time job. He's figuring, if things work right that in 2 more years he can do this full time ... and get a "real office". And he started with 3 bands, that he knew ... now you can guess where my books are going since PA is not showing enough interest.
It's simple economics ... it's called a "figure 8" ... if your money goes out, and doesn't come back to you, enough to help you make it, you're done. You're just going to be another bonafide hacker posting on many boards with just a couple of homemade songs here and there. If the money comes back to you, you have a chance to get better equipment, some wheels, a new PA ... and present yourself better ... and guess what ... 3 out of 4 of those bands usually can continue ... might not be perfect, but it is better and they usually get some attention ... so if the money goes out for someone else to do the numbers ... good luck seeing the numbers in your hands ... and getting that better amp you badly need, or PA ...
You're living in 2010 ... stopping waiting for someone to offer you a gold watch! ... for free!
Edited by moshkito - October 26 2010 at 19:11
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: October 26 2010 at 18:19 |
Dean wrote:
moshkito wrote:
cphil wrote:
The illegal distribution or copying of recordings , books etc. It is much more than that, it is CRIMINAL. the millions who do it without blinking an eye , steal from artists but cry crocodile tears when someone breaks into their houses and take their stuff. progbands don't have top 10 hits , so they are hurt the most by unlawful piracy . |
With one problem ... the greatest piracy of it all takes place under the disguise of "a record company" ... whose numbers are not even half of the actual sales!
So, why the heck is anyone getting upset about one band or two losing $1k dollars ... when there is at least one guy flying around color balls out there that has ripped millions from many other artists? ... who only got maybe 10 to 20% of it all!
The majority of "illegal" activity is around bands that are in it for the greed and all they want is the money ... and is not applicable to half the bands out there today, who use the Internet to sell themselves.
Please give those soothsayers a mirror to look at themselves before they point a finger at a kid that can't even afford to buy an album and deserves to hear it as well ...
Just be fair ... not greedy, is all I'm asking ... or the music is dead. It's almost like saying that only these people that make money and have lawyers are capable and able of doing music ... and that distorts things horrendously.
You might also take a lesson, or read a little about the Grateful Dead ... the band that gave away the most is by far one of the richest in the world for it. May not be great music, but the respect and care and love they get ... is second to none and irreplaceable by any amount of money or greed ... or attempt to make people feel guilty for not paying for something not worth its price at all!
Sorry about the rant ... I'm sure Snow or What's his name will tell me to stuff it! |
There are many ways in which people who "deserves to hear it" can hear it legally and without ripping off the artist: try the band website, MySpace page, search for it on LastFM radio or YouTube or get a free account on one of the legal streaming sites like Spotify where you can listen to 20 hours of new music every month. |
Alright up to here, but I just need to say that is wrong. Spotify doesn't even have barely obscure artists. Same with youtube and myspace. It's not very often bands put their entire album up! 
Edited by Nathaniel607 - October 26 2010 at 18:58
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
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Posted: October 26 2010 at 18:15 |
moshkito wrote:
cphil wrote:
The illegal distribution or copying of recordings , books etc. It is much more than that, it is CRIMINAL. the millions who do it without blinking an eye , steal from artists but cry crocodile tears when someone breaks into their houses and take their stuff. progbands don't have top 10 hits , so they are hurt the most by unlawful piracy . |
With one problem ... the greatest piracy of it all takes place under the disguise of "a record company" ... whose numbers are not even half of the actual sales!
So, why the heck is anyone getting upset about one band or two losing $1k dollars ... when there is at least one guy flying around color balls out there that has ripped millions from many other artists? ... who only got maybe 10 to 20% of it all!
The majority of "illegal" activity is around bands that are in it for the greed and all they want is the money ... and is not applicable to half the bands out there today, who use the Internet to sell themselves.
Please give those soothsayers a mirror to look at themselves before they point a finger at a kid that can't even afford to buy an album and deserves to hear it as well ...
Just be fair ... not greedy, is all I'm asking ... or the music is dead. It's almost like saying that only these people that make money and have lawyers are capable and able of doing music ... and that distorts things horrendously.
You might also take a lesson, or read a little about the Grateful Dead ... the band that gave away the most is by far one of the richest in the world for it. May not be great music, but the respect and care and love they get ... is second to none and irreplaceable by any amount of money or greed ... or attempt to make people feel guilty for not paying for something not worth its price at all!
Sorry about the rant ... I'm sure Snow or What's his name will tell me to stuff it! |
No need to wait for Snowie.
So, If I've got this right - the record companies are the real bad guys because they have been ripping off the artists for years, so ripping off the record companies is fair game. Surely that's a double rip-off for the artist.
What of the artists who own their record labels? Of all the self-released artists who just want to get back some of the investment of creativity, time and money they've put into producing the albums? Not all record labels are huge gready megacorporations, in our genre the bands couldn't get signed to those labels even if they wanted to - most of the labels that Prog bands are signed to are small table-top operations that barely stay afloat as it is.
There are many ways in which people who "deserves to hear it" can hear it legally and without ripping off the artist: try the band website, MySpace page, search for it on LastFM radio or YouTube or get a free account on one of the legal streaming sites like Spotify where you can listen to 20 hours of new music every month.
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What?
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: October 26 2010 at 17:33 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Nathaniel607 wrote:
Sorry, you've kind of confused me here...
Yes, you are confused, laws are not simple. When you steal a car's copyrighted emblems, you are using someone else's idea to get money. I don't think many people who put albums up for download make money off of it!
Even without profit, the sharing of something you don't own is illegal, but that's not the case, most of this sites get advertising, so they're making profit.
We have to deal with the legal dowloaders or copyists, that's unfair enough, but if we have to live with the illegal downloaders or copyists, we're done, even if they don't have profit, they affect us.
Take my case, I wrote a book about Constitutional law directed to lawyers, but mostly to law students, but the editorial gave a step back when the laws changed:
- The Universities can now copy my book for teaching purpose and sell it in photocopies to the students, so I would probably loose 70% of my targeted audience. I have to learn to live with this and target it to lawyers.
- But if a book sells well or is copied by many universities, the pirates will copy my book (about US$ 30.00) and sell it in front of the Lawyers Association at US$ 5.00, so I'm done, lost 100% of my targeted audience. I had to agree with a foreign editorial (Their country as stronger laws) that will sell my book in more money and pay me 50% because of the risk.
Also, if someone makes a copy and puts it up for download, it's illegal wether he bought it or not. Finally, I don't what the laws are in other place, but in the U.K, I don't think you're technically allowed to make any personal copies of pretty much and digital medium you do not own the copyrights to.
Seems you didn't notice that I said...that
In the first case when you downloads a CD you are acting as owner of a plastic CD that costs, more or less 15 dollars
But if you also upload the music for others to get it, you are acting not only as owner of the plastic CD, but as the owner of the music, because you are distributing something that only the copyright holder can do.
In some countries, downloading is not always a felony, but uploading is always a crime
Iván
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I think I understand what you're saying now.
Do those blog owners get money from the advertising though? Is it not
the blog suppliers that get the money in most cases? I don't know, I've
never had one, I just thought that's how it worked.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: October 26 2010 at 17:26 |
Nathaniel607 wrote:
Sorry, you've kind of confused me here...
Yes, you are confused, laws are not simple.When you steal a car's copyrighted emblems, you are using someone else's idea to get money. I don't think many people who put albums up for download make money off of it!
Even without profit, the sharing of something you don't own is illegal, but that's not the case, most of this sites get advertising, so they're making profit.
We have to deal with the legal dowloaders or copyists, that's unfair enough, but if we have to live with the illegal downloaders or copyists, we're done, even if they don't have profit, they affect us.
Take my case, I wrote a book about Constitutional law directed to lawyers, but mostly to law students, but the editorial gave a step back when the laws changed:
- The Universities can now copy my book for teaching purpose and sell it in photocopies to the students, so I would probably loose 70% of my targeted audience. I have to learn to live with this and target it to lawyers.
- But if a book sells well or is copied by many universities, the pirates will copy my book (about US$ 30.00) and sell it in front of the Lawyers Association at US$ 5.00, so I'm done, lost 100% of my targeted audience. I had to agree with a foreign editorial (Their country as stronger laws) that will sell my book in more money and pay me 50% because of the risk.
Also, if someone makes a copy and puts it up for download, it's illegal wether he bought it or not. Finally, I don't what the laws are in other place, but in the U.K, I don't think you're technically allowed to make any personal copies of pretty much and digital medium you do not own the copyrights to.
Seems you didn't notice that I said...that
In the first case when you downloads a CD you are acting as owner of a plastic CD that costs, more or less 15 dollars
But if you also upload the music for others to get it, you are acting not only as owner of the plastic CD, but as the owner of the music, because you are distributing something that only the copyright holder can do.
In some countries, downloading is not always a felony, but uploading is always a crime
Iván
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: October 26 2010 at 16:34 |
moshkito wrote:
cphil wrote:
The illegal distribution or copying of recordings , books etc. It is much more than that, it is CRIMINAL. the millions who do it without blinking an eye , steal from artists but cry crocodile tears when someone breaks into their houses and take their stuff. progbands don't have top 10 hits , so they are hurt the most by unlawful piracy . |
Please give those soothsayers a mirror to look at themselves before they point a finger at a kid that can't even afford to buy an album and deserves to hear it as well ...
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I think this is a very good/important point! I very much doubt there are many millionaire yacht-owners with a huge collection of illegaly downloaded music.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18071
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Posted: October 26 2010 at 16:31 |
cphil wrote:
The illegal distribution or copying of recordings , books etc. It is much more than that, it is CRIMINAL. the millions who do it without blinking an eye , steal from artists but cry crocodile tears when someone breaks into their houses and take their stuff. progbands don't have top 10 hits , so they are hurt the most by unlawful piracy . |
With one problem ... the greatest piracy of it all takes place under the disguise of "a record company" ... whose numbers are not even half of the actual sales!
So, why the heck is anyone getting upset about one band or two losing $1k dollars ... when there is at least one guy flying around color balls out there that has ripped millions from many other artists? ... who only got maybe 10 to 20% of it all!
The majority of "illegal" activity is around bands that are in it for the greed and all they want is the money ... and is not applicable to half the bands out there today, who use the Internet to sell themselves.
Please give those soothsayers a mirror to look at themselves before they point a finger at a kid that can't even afford to buy an album and deserves to hear it as well ...
Just be fair ... not greedy, is all I'm asking ... or the music is dead. It's almost like saying that only these people that make money and have lawyers are capable and able of doing music ... and that distorts things horrendously.
You might also take a lesson, or read a little about the Grateful Dead ... the band that gave away the most is by far one of the richest in the world for it. May not be great music, but the respect and care and love they get ... is second to none and irreplaceable by any amount of money or greed ... or attempt to make people feel guilty for not paying for something not worth its price at all!
Sorry about the rant ... but "today's" band is less concerned with a record deal than a band from 30 years ago, when the business dominated it so badly. So, please, do not distort the wording and the "fame" of your bands by wording that is suggesting that they need an extra dollar and that someone that never had a penny can't get anyway ... or this is like my own ... I get a check every 6 months for 25 cents ... you show me the last book or CD sold for that much ... and then let's talk who is ripping off who.
Stop supporting corruption ... and where there is money is where the major corruption is ... REGARDLESS ... of how you word it! Would I want an extra penny from McCartney, Elton or Michael .. sure ... but it ain't gonna happen because of "lawyers" and "greed" in there ... not because of me! ... sorry, that seeing stuff like this makes me angry ... there are a lot of new bands out there that deserve the credit and the ability ... but you are not supporting them ... you are supporting the lawyers of the big companies instead?
Weird!
Edited by moshkito - October 26 2010 at 18:08
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: October 26 2010 at 16:21 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Nathaniel607 wrote:
Yes - that is a much better analogy for the illegal downloading of music. Still not great really though, since when you're downloading music you're not claiming it as your own and then selling it
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Yes you intrinsically claim you are the owner of a legally bought CD, because only the OWNER of a CD legally bought, can reproduce the music and make a copy for personal use, from the moment you make a copy of the music in a CDR or even in the hard disk of your PC or even listen it fully, you are doing something that only the owner of the CD can do.
Even worst. many people download the music, go immediately to a blog and place the music for anybody to download, something that only the owner of the copyright can do, so as a fact, you're acting as the owner of the music.
The laws are very interesting at this point.
Iván |
Sorry, you've kind of confused me here... When you steal a car's copyrighted emblems, you are using someone else's idea to get money. I don't think many people who put albums up for download make money off of it! Also, if someone makes a copy and puts it up for download, it's illegal wether he bought it or not. Finally, I don't what the laws are in other place, but in the U.K, I don't think you're technically allowed to make any personal copies of pretty much and digital medium you do not own the copyrights to.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
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Posted: October 26 2010 at 16:09 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
What you would then be describing is a failure of policy/protection not of your entrepreneurial decisions.
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Yes that's exactly what I am describing. What I'm saying is precisely that due to the nature of illegal file sharing, it's a bit naive to expect that legal protection alone will solve the musicians problems. I am not saying they should completely give up seeking for legal protection, I am simply suggesting that given how difficult this is in practice, they better work paralelly in trying to make legal music more attractive and competitive.
Having sid this, I believe that legal music is already reasonably competitive. If you are middle class living in a developed country, your net salary is likely to be around 10-15 euro per hour (for lazy ones, this is around 15-20 USD or 8-13 UK£). If you want to get a nice pirated CD with artwork etc, if you count the time you spend in searching, dowloading, burning, printing the artwork and cutting it, the cost of the blank CD and ink etc etc, at your hourly rate, you realise that it does not make much sense.
If original CD's would be priced consistently around 10 euro as maximum (which unfortunately is not always the case for non-mainstream music), when you compare that with what you have to pay nowadays for a drink in a central cafe in a big city, the price would be fairly reasonable and competitive against illegal downloads.
Edited by Gerinski - October 26 2010 at 23:50
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: October 26 2010 at 15:51 |
Nathaniel607 wrote:
Yes - that is a much better analogy for the illegal downloading of music. Still not great really though, since when you're downloading music you're not claiming it as your own and then selling it
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Yes you intrinsically claim you are the owner of a legally bought CD, because only the OWNER of a CD legally bought, can reproduce the music and make a copy for personal use, from the moment you make a copy of the music in a CDR or even in the hard disk of your PC or even listen it fully, you are doing something that only the owner of the CD can do.
Even worst. many people download the music, go immediately to a blog and place the music for anybody to download, something that only the owner of the copyright can do, so as a fact, you're acting as the owner of the music.
The laws are very interesting at this point.
Iván
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: October 26 2010 at 15:15 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
^ LOL
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I'm glad you've rethought your position and now find it ridiculous.
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You are so wise.
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