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tamijo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4287
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Topic: How many members actually read about Prog? Posted: August 25 2010 at 08:59 |
Is this tread turning into one of those treads, this tread is about. ?
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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ergaster
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 294
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Posted: August 25 2010 at 07:49 |
nightlamp wrote:
I won't read a prog book just for the sake of it being prog, but I do make a point to track down print sources (when possible) about bands I like. It just seems like a no-brainer. Forum chatter can be fun and even informative, but nine times out of ten I'd rather read a well-researched article or interview with a musician I admire than page after page of opinion-based user reviews and comments.
On the subject of prog reading: I ran into some trouble recently when researching my master's thesis in music history -- I'm writing on the stylistic development of space rock in the early '70s, and when my gradaute advisor read my bibliography he cautioned me about discernment when evaluating scholarly vs. journalistic or "fan" sources. The trouble is, I can count the number of objective, scholarly treatments progressive rock as a whole on one, maybe two hands. Fortunately, my advisor was very understanding of my predicament... |
I notice you are a grad student. Have you heard the joke: "You know you are a grad student when the reference list is more interesting than the article."? In that vein, have you searched out some of the sources that Edward Macan used when he was researching Rocking the Classics? Not directly prog-related (they wouldn't be) and they'd be old now, but some of them look interesting enough to track down for background and context.
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We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
Captain Malcolm Reynolds
Reality rules, Honor the truth
Chemist99a R.I.P.
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Kashmir75
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 25 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1029
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Posted: August 24 2010 at 23:38 |
I buy Classic Rock presents Prog magazine. That's the extent of my prog research. I'm not writing a PhD thesis on the subject, its just a hobby of mine.
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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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nightlamp
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 07 2007
Location: San Francisco
Status: Offline
Points: 163
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Posted: August 24 2010 at 21:20 |
I won't read a prog book just for the sake of it being prog, but I do make a point to track down print sources (when possible) about bands I like. It just seems like a no-brainer. Forum chatter can be fun and even informative, but nine times out of ten I'd rather read a well-researched article or interview with a musician I admire than page after page of opinion-based user reviews and comments.
On the subject of prog reading: I ran into some trouble recently when researching my master's thesis in music history -- I'm writing on the stylistic development of space rock in the early '70s, and when my gradaute advisor read my bibliography he cautioned me about discernment when evaluating scholarly vs. journalistic or "fan" sources. The trouble is, I can count the number of objective, scholarly treatments progressive rock as a whole on one, maybe two hands. Fortunately, my advisor was very understanding of my predicament...
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AtomicCrimsonRush
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14258
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Posted: August 24 2010 at 07:08 |
I read daily about prog...
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2619
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Posted: August 24 2010 at 06:53 |
Evolver wrote:
moshkito wrote:
Pangaea wrote:
...
To be honest, lots of people discovered early Prog bands like Yes and Genesis based solely on their strikingly creative album covers. And THAT'S what pulled them in. Hey, there's something creative going on here. Then they found the actual music.
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That and the start of FM radio which gave you the music in Stereo and sounded way better.
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And at one time FM radio actually played prog bands. |
Me and many( or some) fans like me never choose music because of cover. I living in Iran and 90% music I bought "DIDN'T HAVE COVER". I prefer to listen one or two songs or parts. I choosing music with my EARS not by my EYES.
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thehallway
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 13 2010
Location: Dorset, England
Status: Offline
Points: 1433
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Posted: August 23 2010 at 12:56 |
Gerinski wrote:
I just started a thread with the question "How did Genesis fans react to The Lamb" so I guess I'm being directly refered to here...
I'm not a prog novice, I'm 44 and I have listened to prog since before I knew what it was, my elder family members listened to prog while I was doing my addition and substraction and multiplication homework. My lifetime mates are also prog fans, we grew together listening to prog (and other music as well), we have had years of discussions, we have read magazines... you know what I mean.
I think I have a pretty good idea of how did Genesis fans react to the release of The Lamb. And if I want to learn more about it, sure, I can search the net and read stuff for 2 full days.
That's not the point. Reading is one very important thing, but it is something completely different from an internet forum. Reading is a 1-way exercise and the purpose is purely to inform and educate yourself.
Forums are an interactive amusement. I think many of us here use the forum as a sort of tool for chatting with other people who like similar music as we do, to engage in (hopefully) entertaining discussions, even if in many occasions we will hear again and again what we already know or what has been already said 100 times before.
I'm not expecting a single reply by an authoritative music history scholar telling me the objective truth of how did Genesis fans react to The Lamb. I'm simply expecting to hear other PA members' opinions and have some fun.
I understand what you mean and surely all of us can and should educate ourselves, but I think you miss the point of what a forum is for.
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Yes.
To the Thread Starter:
If someone (and it isn't neccessarily just young people) says something annoying, unintellectual, uneducated, stupid, obscene, offensive, blasphemous, unneccesary, unoriginal or simply wrong, all you have to do is not read it.
The above things do waste time, but starting new threads to moan about something you aren't even forced to read or participate in, wastes time doubly so.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: August 22 2010 at 17:04 |
Hi Tux.
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: August 22 2010 at 17:01 |
I never read books about music, I used to read some magazines, but at a certain point I realised that all those magazines never went further than the more popular bands, which is the dificulty with every form of communication about everything, we need some common language in which we communicate,
basically every prog discussion can start with discussing Genesis/Yes/King Crimson/Pink Floyd and it can lead anywhere you want it too lead.
no need to do research 'caus you can't find what you want to find, all you will find in books is the trodden path of who's who and which bands sold well. obscure bands are not obscure without reason.
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 14:26 |
Not so much. I bought a couple issues of Classic Rock: Prog, but then I realized it was too expensive and I could get most of what it had in there from Wikipedia. INTERNET!
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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 14:17 |
moshkito wrote:
Pangaea wrote:
...
To be honest, lots of people discovered early Prog bands like Yes and Genesis based solely on their strikingly creative album covers. And THAT'S what pulled them in. Hey, there's something creative going on here. Then they found the actual music.
... |
That and the start of FM radio which gave you the music in Stereo and sounded way better.
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And at one time FM radio actually played prog bands.
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17497
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 13:45 |
Pangaea wrote:
...
To be honest, lots of people discovered early Prog bands like Yes and Genesis based solely on their strikingly creative album covers. And THAT'S what pulled them in. Hey, there's something creative going on here. Then they found the actual music.
... |
That and the start of FM radio which gave you the music in Stereo and sounded way better.
And one of my first guides???? Easy!!! ... all the Hipgnosis' covers! It covers almost one third of all the startups that eventually defined "prog" ... most of which people here are not willing to listen to.
Kinda sad when no one knows or is capable of even saying hello to Roy Harper! And guess where Mike Oldfield got his start? ... yep! With Kevin Ayers!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Pangaea
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 17 2009
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 46
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 11:16 |
Dick Heath wrote:
In the heyday of progressive rock (late 60's and early 70's) , it was said the music found a home with middle class teens and 20's , and especially those who were doing some form of higher education. Hence a suggestion: prog was more popular with those who might be thought to be 'intelligent' and enquirying - indeed the perahps the more argumentative part of the youth population? So whilst the following might reflect an old man's arrogance: what happened to self enquiry, |
Oh here we go again. The old Prog is only for intelligent people while dummies listen to those 'other' forms of music argument.
I think the tendency always was: you discover a band of whatever genre (but let's say Prog so we can pretend to be talking about a superior art form) and you like it. THEN, if you were really interested, you'd do some research, read a book about the band or the times or some aspect that the band/music triggers in you.
I can't imagine going out and reading all kinds of books or articles on some unknown band that I may or may not like. There are far too many bands and books to do that for. You go read a 500 page book on Lynyrd Skynyrd or somebody only to discover later, after you buy their record that "hey, these guys suck! Sure glad I spent all that time reading about them."
Self enquiry is just that - it flows from the self. Something hits you, then you do the smart-guy stuff like read a book or find everything ever written about them on the internet.
To be honest, lots of people discovered early Prog bands like Yes and Genesis based solely on their strikingly creative album covers. And THAT'S what pulled them in. Hey, there's something creative going on here. Then they found the actual music.
Of course, back in the day you'd never find ANYTHING written about these bands outside of a superficial Circus magazine article once in a great while. And that was only for the biggest Prog bands. And yet people discovered them anyway without all this self-congratulatory intelligent research.
As for all those threads like What Was the First Prog Album , Was Lamb Lies Down first neo-prog album etc etc etc ad nauseum, I think those are started more out of boredom and an absence of creative thought; some people have to always appear to be doing something so they throw those out there. The sheer number of those type threads here on this Prog site actually speaks against your argument that Prog is for intelligent folks.
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Darklord55
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 08 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 357
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 08:14 |
I trust to my EARS.
I agree 100%!! For the most part, who's the better guitarist, drummer, etc etc varies as much as reviews do of an album. A five star to some may be a one star to others. The best guitarist to one could be not so great to another. If I strictly depended on the opinion of others I would have missed out on some incredible music.
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2619
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 06:37 |
We can talk about good music or bad music and give reasons for our opinion. Like compare 2 guitarist. One of them have beter technique and we recognize that. BUT when we want compare 2 guitar-hero this is not work. If we vote to one of them this vote come from our TASTE. Writers have their own taste. Many books just explain their writer's taste. Maybe one writer like Genesis more than YES and write a book about that and young fans after read that book thinks " Genesis beter than YES"!!!!
I never trust to this kind of books. I trust to my EARS.
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: August 17 2010 at 00:53 |
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17497
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Posted: August 16 2010 at 15:01 |
Raff wrote:
I have some books about progressive rock at home, and have been reading music magazine for years. Now that the Internet is so widespread and readily available (at least in Western countries), I believe there is really no excuse for such lack of information. There are sites dedicated to progressive rock in quite a few languages besides English (I know of at least three or four in Italian), and some of them offer very good reading material on the history and development of the genre. |
I couple of my pictures have been used in at least 2 books ... and one website did not even have the gall or the werewithal to ask if they could use my pictures!
Sometimes the polite thing to do is the easiest!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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himtroy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1601
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Posted: August 16 2010 at 14:38 |
I don't frequently read the articles on the site, but I'm informed enough to not ask retarded questions. It is kind of irritating to hear things like "What are some of King Crimson's best albums" anymore though, knowing how clearly laid out it all is on the site.
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Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell?
I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20239
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Posted: August 16 2010 at 10:42 |
Dick Heath wrote:
I feel we getting an increase in the number of threads with titles such as:
what was the first prog album,
was Lamb Lies Down first neo-prog album,
is jazz prog?
etc. ad nausem, that suggest the authors have not bothered to read the copious amounts of (non-thread) information carefully written and available here, let alone attempted to read any of the books postered here and reviewed. What is worse the reponses usually don't direct the originator to points of references. So is there a tendency here to argue rather than educate??? The numbers of strikes wrt to the collection of threads largely on books here, would part support my thought that there is only limited interest in reading books that at least have some half decend research done in their preparations. It is clear with some that they have come to expand their knowledge wrt prog especially our younger members, but too often many of the responses to "recommend me...." suggest that a novice should be dropped in at the deep end amongst artists/albums, rather thinking that a novice should "walk before he/she can run" - which for instance happens too often wrt jazz recommendations. (Perhaps such requests need an initial question in response,to be answered by the originator: 'what music do you like?"... and from that provide recommendationsof music of a new genre that has at least loose connections. You'll note to a recent request on jazz albums, I suggested the discographies found in a couple of books, which tend to be fairly neutral and constructed in their reviews, than those produced by keen PA fan promoting their favourites here).
In the heyday of progressive rock (late 60's and early 70's) , it was said the music found a home with middle class teens and 20's , and especially those who were doing some form of higher education. Hence a suggestion: prog was more popular with those who might be thought to be 'intelligent' and enquirying - indeed the perahps the more argumentative part of the youth population? So whilst the following might reflect an old man's arrogance: what happened to self enquiry, and so do others find a malaise, a naivity? Further, do you treat some threads with contempt and so avoid them like the plague although otherwise believe the subject matter is up your street? |
Hi Dick, (-a little mlate on the sunject, but.... )
I understand where you're coming from and share some of your frustrations.....
One must be dealing with the side effects of the Web and modern society.
I have quite a few books on prog and music in general now, but when younger (in my teens), I only had one reference book, an Illustrated Encyclopedia of rock, that was mostly minding of English speaking rock (although Ange and Magma were featured, but not Harmonium or Rush). So the only places I took my infos from were the monthlies (Rock'n Folk and Best in French, Creem in English) and to a lesser extent the weeklies (Sounds, once in a while) and the free stuff (the Canadian periodical New Music Express - I know ) and the odd book, notably Gallo's book on Genesis, but I can't say this quenched my thirst much.
First, the younger members, impatient (wanting everything now and not waiting for tomorrow) and broke (at least for buying stuff they can have for free). PA is sort of an entry-typoe of site, where newcommers can ask intelligent and dumb questions. PA 's forum reputation is not exactly known for its elitist membership, and that's probably why it's so successfull.......
But deep inside of me, I wish more some people (not necessarily the younger ones, some are actually quite advanced) refrained from being too impulsive and not thinking enough their opening posts..... Because if they thought about it more, they'd probably find their answers by themselves with having to post it.
Nowadays there are flurry of books and sampler boxsets with plenty of info, but you have to BUY them
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let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Darklord55
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 08 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 357
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Posted: August 16 2010 at 08:39 |
Ok, maybe I didn't explain it clear enough. I'm not upset at all. There is nothing to forgive. I hold nothing against you. I did not intend what I said to be an attack on your person. It's like I tell my son when I need to correct him. "I'm not mad at you, but upset at the behaviour." I don't like it when proggers come off like a snob. I include me with that attitude. I have to watch myself so when I do critique a certain style of music that I don't come off snobish and the music I like is better than the music someone else likes. Even though it is. So please forgive me as well.
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