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topographicbroadways 
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 Topic: It was the worst of times and the best of times
Posted: May 20 2010 at 13:29 |
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gentle giant freehand - in'terview
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Conor Fynes
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 11 2009
Location: Vancouver, CA
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Posted: May 19 2010 at 16:09 |
Metallica is definately the biggest perpetrator of this... The black album killed alot of their quality, and the Load album took whatever was left.
Muse after Black Holes and Revelations... Resistance was so looked forward to and it stunk.
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trackstoni
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Posted: May 16 2010 at 16:20 |
There's no Worst of Time & the Best of Time , It's well Known among all Real Proggers around the World that productivity depends on timing , line- ups , managements , label companies ETC .............
But as far as my opinion concern , the vintage years are well known for the public ,,,,, Progressive Rock was made , and stood still Up till now , between 1969 & 1979 . And , NO ONE CAN ARGUE ABOUT THIS FACT ////////////////// Then ,,,, yu can now refer to yur bands , Yes , Genesis , ELP , PF , VDGG , GG and all progressive bands from the Era , and yu can tell what was the difference //////// ( with the exception of some bands after this era )
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Tracking Tracks of Rock
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Posted: May 14 2010 at 18:42 |
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Padme: and thats true too.
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Bitterblogger
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Posted: May 13 2010 at 13:16 |
 AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
Are we on topic yet, I forgot what this thread was about for a second... |
These sidebar soapbox indulgences can get to be too much. Hijacking the thread is at least as objectionable AS TYPING IN ALL CAPS.
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Posted: May 12 2010 at 09:43 |
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Are we on topic yet, I forgot what this thread was about for a second...
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Jake Kobrin
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Posted: May 09 2010 at 17:43 |
I personally love the turntabled/industrial/sampled sound but NOT of the digital variety. Anyone who wants to hear some amazing "proggy" hip-hop should listen to Dalek's Absence. But back on topic... Romantic Warrior - Music Magic 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 09 2010 at 10:03 |
No please, not Rap again.
I simply don't loike Rap, I don't like Madlib because I dislike sampling, never believed a turntable is a musical instrument, it just reproduces music real artists write.
Don't like DJ Shadow, don't like Inmortal Technique or any Rap musician who has been mentioned here as great, but I took my time to listen them and stil don't believe rapping is singing.
But this is not a rap thread.
The point is that you clearly state What I would call closed minded is accusing people of being delusional just because they like a piece of music that you don't, not considering the fact that maybe, you know, they actually like it?, but in the next paragraph you say I personally can't see how someone thinks Tormato is a better album other than that it's more in the "right' style. Which IMO is not how you review a record .
If you don't notice this is a contradiction you simply are not thinking in what you write, because both the second statement denies everything you said in the first one.
Then you make it even worst when you state:
boo boo wrote:
]I will give you props for liking Rumours, maybe you're not so bad after all. |
But today you make it worst despite the smiley:
boo boo wrote:
]I think far too often that even the most awful prog albums get more rave reviews than the best non prog albums on this website. I swear adding "prog related" artists is mostly just an excuse to rave about how superior prog is to everything else. |
Please boo boo, Who are you to say an album the majority of the members love is awful? Don't you understand that taste is subjective? You don't have to like what we like, but you have to respect other's tastes, you may say OI don't like Close to the Edge or Foxtrot or whatever, but when you say this album is awful and the one I like despite most of the people don't like it is intrinsically good, you are being arrogant, because you place your taste over the taste of the rest.
Now, today (despite the smiley) you make it even more dramatic when you state
boo boo wrote:
]I will give you props for liking Rumours, maybe you're not so bad after all |
Please boo Boo: Am .I better because I like some Pop albums? Then I must be even better because I like Meatloaf and a saint because I like Ruben Blades Latin Jazz/Salsa and maybe an Archangel because I like Silvio Rodriguez and the Cuban Nueva Trova despite I hate their Communist ideology.
That's absurd, when kid in the university, my best friends were Metalheads (very few had at least a slight idea about Prog), this guys not only listened exclusively Metal, but dressed as Metal fans, breath and sweat Metal music, and all were excellent persons and not at all close minded, because they respected my taste as I respected theirs...Yes we all hated Disco Music, but because it was a symbol of everything that was wrong with musical industry in those days.
So don't judge if you don't want to be judged, respect the tastes of the people, if somebody only listens Prog and that makes him/her happy...Good for him/her, and if another person likes every music he listen in a radio, MTV or even in an elevator, also great for him, we listen music to be happy, and if Rap doesn't make me happy...Why in hell must I listen Rap existing so much music in the universe?
Iván
BTW: This posts should be in the elitism thread
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 09 2010 at 10:24
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Posted: May 09 2010 at 09:45 |
Hmmmmmmmmm all I asked was to name the worst decline or rise in sucessive albums and its come to this!
Discussions are good though.
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boo boo
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Posted: May 09 2010 at 04:33 |
You know, I really don't disagree with most of what you said I just want to say that you missed my point a lot of times, but I don't want to get into a dreary argument.
I will give you props for liking Rumours, maybe you're not so bad after all. 
Most mainstream rap of which you dislike is gangsta rap derivative. I do consider some gangsta rap albums like Straight Outta Compton, The Chronic, Doggystyle and Ready to Die to be masterpieces of the genre, but for the most part the whole gangsta thing wore out it's wecome after the 90s.
It's a stereotype that all rap sounds the same, putting aside the ready for consumption mainstream radio stuff, every region has a rap scene with it's own distinct style that reflects that culture. I'm from the Memphis, Tennessee area and of course we are responsable for the ever so critically acclaimed Crunk movement. 
But anyway. I'd argue that progressive rap indeed exists, it doesn't partularly involve lengthy solos at fast tempos in odd time, but still something different.
Early east coast groups like Da La Soul and Tribe Called Quest expressed very sophisticated tastes, evidenced by their choice of samples, which were incredibly diverse. DJ Shadow (just a DJ, no rapping) made pieces of music entirely out of samples but distorted and obscured them in a way that they weren't regonisable, his pieces are characterized by very layered sounds, hypnotic beats and odd time signatures and has influenced artists as diverse as Radiohead and the chick in my avatar whom I know you aren't a fan of.
And then there's Madlib, who has sampled prog artists like Gentle Giant, Frank Zappa, Egg, Gong and Chris Squire on several occasions. Ya know, I always thought a lot of prog would make excellent hip hop samples, especially Squire's groovy bass work. Good to know that at least a few DJs are catching up to the sounds of prog.
But yeah, hip hop has always been a strong genre and it still is, but as of now it's all in the alternative and underground scenes, modern commercial rap doesn't appeal to me, including Kanye West who I find extremely overrated, he has pretty good flow and some creative beats from time to time but his music is nowhere near as great as HE thinks it is, truly an obnoxious personality. Not a fan of his overuse of autotune either, which has now become somewhat of a running joke because it makes him sound like a robotic goat.
Edited by boo boo - May 09 2010 at 05:37
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 08 2010 at 19:18 |
boo boo wrote:
Well that depends on how you define open minded.
I think a lot of people here rate an album's "quality" by how much it resembles the "prefered" style of the artist and how "prog" it is. There's no way that is objective, I'm not implying that there is a truly objective way to review a piece of music because there really isn't and there seems to be a pretense among people here that "objective" reviews is what they call themselves doing.
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I believe nobody here likes a band because it sounds like a 70's icon, last week I have clearly expressed how much I dislike bands like Starcastle or Unifaun because they clone Yes and Genesis adding very little (if something) of their own.
A good band may be inspired on a determined band as 5Bridges or be completely different to all like Shadow Circus and both be excellent, what I search is originality (Not uniqueness, because this is almost impossible to achieve), skills and ability to release a coherent and good album .
I don't care if they are inspired in Yes or in nobody (something very hard), I guide myself for my taste.
That's all I ask.
boo boo wrote:
What you call closedminded I call simply having an opposing opinion.
What I would call closed minded is accusing people of being delusional just because they like a piece of music that you don't, not considering the fact that maybe, you know, they actually like it? |
I believe nobody here will call another member delusional for having a different taste, in my case I hate Rap, but know a lot of people who love it, and there's no problem because it's their taste and they have the God give right to like whatever they want, again in my case I like a Fleetwood Mac album like Rumours much more than almost every Yes release, I don't care if it's Rock or Pop or whatever, I simply like it.
boo boo wrote:
I'm not denying that Yes (my favorite band) have some awful awful material but 90125 isn't one of those albums in my opinion, it's a pretty creative pop record and a step above everything they've done since (at least up until Magnification), and other than it being "pop' I have yet to hear a legitimate reason for it's alleged awfulness, I personally can't see how someone thinks Tormato is a better album other than that it's more in the "right' style. Which IMO is not how you review a record. |
Hey, this is a contradiction with your last paragraph.
You said:
| What I would call closed minded is accusing people of being delusional just because they like a piece of music that you don't, not considering the fact that maybe, you know, they actually like it?
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But then you change 180° degrees:
| I personally can't see how someone thinks Tormato is a better album other than that it's more in the "right' style. Which IMO is not how you review a record
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When you affirm you don't understand how somebody likes Tormato more than 90125, you are falling exactly in your definition of close minded. 
In my case I don't like any of both albums, but understand how some people like Tormato and others 90125, even when my taste is different, but most important, I respect their tastes..
BTW: My reviews are my reviews, I review and rate an album in a totally honest way and support my opinions, which I believe is better than just rating a couple of albums. I reviewed 90125 with 1 star because I believe it's a terrible album and Tormato with 2 stars because Future Times and Onward, something I explained in my review (Not much better to be honest), something you can't do in a rating without review. 
boo boo wrote:
Just because it sounds like the older stuff doesn't mean it's good and just because it doesn't sound like the older stuff doesn't mean it's bad. I almost find it ironic how much craptalk bands get for straying too far from their older sound, I guess you can't progress too much. There's several examples other than making the dreaded pop record, weither it's The Strawbs going country (oh noes) or Ozric Tentacles taking influences from genres that aren't acceptable for proggies like reggae. |
Some bands evolve for better and some evolve for worst, it depends in each case.
Neither a band is good because they sound like an older band, neither it's bad for the same reason.
A band is good because they are able to write good music and perform it with skills.
boo boo wrote:
What is progressive rock? That's making genre bending progressive music right? |
Not right, Progressive Rock is a genre like Pop, Rock or whatever, some of us like it, others hate it, that's normal.
boo boo wrote:
Ok right. But at this point it's really tough for a band to be prog AND progressive anymore because these words have such different meanings now. Any band that blends prog influences with that of "primitive" genres like hardcore punk, hip hop, reggae, pop and other genres that prog fans choose to remain forever ignorant to are considered blasphemous, thus, not prog. |
Have you checked Crossover?
They have a lot of bands and artists with strong mainstream influences and considered as 100% Prog according to the site and their members.
Now, I don't believe I would like Prog Rap or Hip Hop, because I don't like Rap neither Hip Hop, but that's my taste and you have to accept it even if you don't share it.
BTW: Prog fans don't choose to remain ignorant about some bands,most of us give a cjance o everything, we just like it or not.
boo boo wrote:
In other words, progressive rock by the definition of a lot of prog fans, is rock music that progresses, but not beyond the comfort zone. |
Again wrong, Progressive Rock doesn't have to progress, it may or not, that's the musician's call.
boo boo wrote:
And I'm just talking about actual progressive rock, which neo prog and stuff like Dream Theater isn't in the slightest. It's conterfeit prog, an imitation and an inferior one at that, and nothing more. But that is what is acceptable as "true" prog and not the post 70s rock bands that have really done some challenging, genre defying rock music, that is where my bitter resentment lies. |
I believe you are living in the past, Neo Prog has almost 30 years and Dream Theater has 21 years since their first release, many things have passed since then
Have you heard The Red Masque? or maybe Factor Burzaco? or maybe Aviva from Russia or Shadow Circus from USA?
Prog has evolved a lot, there are excellent and bad new bands as there are good, average and terrible old bands. Just listen Pendragon Pure...Yes a Neo Prog album, so revolutionary that sounds like nothing else they (or any other Neo Prog band) did before.
Have you heard She by CAAMORA? A Neo Prog Opera that sounds nothing like Neo Prog.
boo boo wrote:
Because unfortunately not everyone who likes progressive rock actually has a progressive outlook of their own, quite the opposite. |
Why unfortunately? People have heir own taste, if they want to listen exclusively the same music they heard in their childhood, good for them, accept their option and respect it.
boo boo wrote:
I think far too often that even the most awful prog albums get more rave reviews than the best non prog albums on this website. I swear adding "prog related" artists is mostly just an excuse to rave about how superior prog is to everything else. |
Awful for you maybe...You criticize close minded people but you are the first one to qualify an album as awful only because you don't like it....Live and let live, tastes are like a$$es everybody has one.
boo boo wrote:
Today, being prog is just imitating the old stuff really, that's about as progressive as Wolfmother. There are still prog bands who actually are progressive, don't get me wrong. But most of the real progressive music groups can't be considered prog because they stray too far from the "formula". The fact that progressive rock actually has a formula now is such a ridiculous contradiction I don't know even know where to start. |
Better listen some real new Prog and then talk, not even albums from ex Prog band members sound like the 70's, the latest Steve Hackett albums are incredibly aggressive and oriented owards Avant Garde.
boo boo wrote:
Prog has ceased to be my favorite genre of music after the 70s and not until recently has it really gotten interesting again. |
Please explain this new contradiction..You say Prog is just imitating but then you say you recently find Prog interesting, I believe you have a strange pleasure in ranting.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 08 2010 at 20:00
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KingCrimson250
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Posted: May 08 2010 at 19:04 |
boo boo wrote:
Sorry Henry, I misinterpreted what you said.
But either way, what makes up a good tone or good sound is obviously subjective. I personally don't find 80s pop synths to be more cheesy or irritating than the synths used by neo prog bands (or by Wakeman on Tormato), and I hate a lot of the synths used in modern pop stuff but the 80s pop synth sound has a real charm for me.
KingCrimson250 wrote:
Actually, I dislike a number of synth sounds. The synth Tony Banks used on SEBTP, for example, was awful. I can't remember the particular instrument but it sounds terrible.
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Blah, SEBTP has my favorite synth tone ever, the synth solo from Cinema Show is probably the best piece of music Banks ever wrote in his career. Total seriousness.
The synth used is an ARP and it's a fantastic one, and probably the best after the moog and korg, it's used by everyone from Brian Eno to Stevie Wonder to Pete Townshend.
The only 80s synth that really bugs me is oddly enough, the ones typically used by neo prog bands like IQ.
And I hate Dream Theater's synth tones a lot, then again I hate everything about that band. |
Actually, that's a good point. Cinema Show does have a good tone to it. And it is an exceptional performance, of course. But Dancing and Firth have both got, in my opinion, awful synth tones, despite the excellent playing. So does Wardrobe, but that's buried enough in the mix that it doesn't drive me nuts. Meanwhile, in listening to The Lamb, ToTT and WAW, the synth tone has consistently improved, IMHO. Fully agree with the DT bit, though. It seems to me that whether it's Moore or Ruddess, if you enjoy the synth playing it's in spite of the tone, not because of it (especially with Moore I find a lot of moments where you hear something that's well played and well written, but still just sounds awful, but you tolerate it because you know it would sound good with a better tone)
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boo boo
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Posted: May 08 2010 at 18:03 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
KingCrimson250 wrote:
I'm not entirely convinced you've been following the discussion. It seems more like you just dropped in to let us know how close-minded we are being for not appreciating every facet of music ever.
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Why?
We know what we like, we only have a well defined musical taste.
We don't have to love every album and song a band released. I believe a better example of "close minded" is a person who listens names and loves an album because X artist released ir, we on the contrary, are able to love or hate an album released by our favourite artist or band, because we are here for the music, that's the best definition of open minded, listen first and approve or not an album. |
Well that depends on how you define open minded.
I think a lot of people here rate an album's "quality" by how much it resembles the "prefered" style of the artist and how "prog" it is. There's no way that is objective, I'm not implying that there is a truly objective way to review a piece of music because there really isn't and there seems to be a pretense among people here that "objective" reviews is what they call themselves doing.
| A close minded fan loves the artist, no matter if they reease a terrible album.
Iván |
What you call closedminded I call simply having an opposing opinion.
What I would call closedminded is accusing people of being delusional just because they like a piece of music that you don't, not considering the fact that maybe, you know, they actually like it?
I'm not denying that Yes (my favorite band) have some awful awful material but 90125 isn't one of those albums in my opinion, it's a pretty creative pop record and a step above everything they've done since (at least up until Magnification), and other than it being "pop' I have yet to hear a legitimate reason for it's alleged awfulness, I personally can't see how someone thinks Tormato is a better album other than that it's more in the "right' style. Which IMO is not how you review a record.
Just because it sounds like the older stuff doesn't mean it's good and just because it doesn't sound like the older stuff doesn't mean it's bad. I almost find it ironic how much craptalk bands get for straying too far from their older sound, I guess you can't progress too much. There's several examples other than making the dreaded pop record, weither it's The Strawbs going country (oh noes) or Ozric Tentacles taking influences from genres that aren't acceptable for proggies like reggae.
What is progressive rock? That's making genre bending progressive music right? Ok right. But at this point it's really tough for a band to be prog AND progressive anymore because these words have such different meanings now. Any band that blends prog influences with that of "primitive" genres like hardcore punk, hip hop, reggae, pop and other genres that prog fans choose to remain forever ignorant to are considered blasphemous, thus, not prog.
In other words, progressive rock by the definition of a lot of prog fans, is rock music that progresses, but not beyond the comfort zone. And I'm just talking about actual progressive rock, which neo prog and stuff like Dream Theater isn't in the slightest. It's conterfeit prog, an imitation and an inferior one at that, and nothing more. But that is what is acceptable as "true" prog and not the post 70s rock bands that have really done some challenging, genre defying rock music, that is where my bitter resentment lies.
Because unfortunately not everyone who likes progressive rock actually has a progressive outlook of their own, quite the opposite.
I think far too often that even the most awful prog albums get more rave reviews than the best non prog albums on this website. I swear adding "prog related" artists is mostly just an excuse to rave about how superior prog is to everything else.
Today, being prog is just imitating the old stuff really, that's about as progressive as Wolfmother. There are still prog bands who actually are progressive, don't get me wrong. But most of the real progressive music groups can't be considered prog because they stray too far from the "formula". The fact that progressive rock actually has a formula now is such a ridiculous contradiction I don't know even know where to start.
Prog has ceased to be my favorite genre of music after the 70s and not until recently has it really gotten interesting again.
Edited by boo boo - May 08 2010 at 18:25
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boo boo
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Posted: May 08 2010 at 17:30 |
Sorry Henry, I misinterpreted what you said.
But either way, what makes up a good tone or good sound is obviously subjective. I personally don't find 80s pop synths to be more cheesy or irritating than the synths used by neo prog bands (or by Wakeman on Tormato), and I hate a lot of the synths used in modern pop stuff but the 80s pop synth sound has a real charm for me.
KingCrimson250 wrote:
Actually, I dislike a number of synth sounds. The synth Tony Banks used on SEBTP, for example, was awful. I can't remember the particular instrument but it sounds terrible.
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Blah, SEBTP has my favorite synth tone ever, the synth solo from Cinema Show is probably the best piece of music Banks ever wrote in his career. Total seriousness.
The synth used is an ARP and it's a fantastic one, and probably the best after the moog and korg, it's used by everyone from Brian Eno to Stevie Wonder to Pete Townshend.
The only 80s synth that really bugs me is oddly enough, the ones typically used by neo prog bands like IQ.
And I hate Dream Theater's synth tones a lot, then again I hate everything about that band.
Edited by boo boo - May 08 2010 at 18:35
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Henry Plainview
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Posted: May 08 2010 at 17:18 |
boo boo wrote:
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| It's impossible for me to even understand why everybody thought that was a good idea. It's like listening Steve Howe play a chord, or Nickelback playing the same chord. |
Now what is that supposed to mean?  |
That was less clear than I remembered it being. You were expressing disbelief that the tone could make such a big difference in your perception of the music, and and I was trying to give an example. If you told Yes and Nickelback to play a middle C chord, while technically they would be playing the same thing, and would probably have more similarities than '70s and '80s pop music, I imagine most of us would find one of them much better. It's the same thing with synth choices in the '80s for me. It's fine if you like it, even though I don't know how, but you have to understand how a lot of people perceive it.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 07 2010 at 14:26 |
Henry talks about the Synth tones, and he's right.
I remember when Rick Wakeman tired of the time limitations of the Mellotron, started to try with the Birotron (Not sure if also with the Novatron), back in the late 70's and 80's, the result was horrendous, it sounded fake, and even when he didn't had to rely in an 8 seconds tape, but he sound was inferior.
Probably it's more obvious with him, but I saw Wakeman in the 70's with his Hammond, Mellotron and Mini Moog, but saw him in the 90's with a small keyboard that sounded like a Casiotrone, it was frightening.
Probably for a guy who listened Wakeman for the first time in the 90's, it was great, but for people raised with Mellotron, Hammond C3 and Mini Moog, the difference was clear and hard to accept.
Iván
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: May 07 2010 at 12:01 |
boo boo wrote:
HOW?
That's like saying you like getting stabbed in the ear, it's the closest thing to that experience. |
Hey, you haven't lived until you've been stabbed by an ice pick in the forehead...
Edited by Slartibartfast - May 07 2010 at 12:02
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 07 2010 at 11:54 |
KingCrimson250 wrote:
I'm not entirely convinced you've been following the discussion. It seems more like you just dropped in to let us know how close-minded we are being for not appreciating every facet of music ever.
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Why?
We know what we like, we only have a well defined musical taste.
We don't have to love every album and song a band released. I believe a better example of "close minded" is a person who listens names and loves an album because X artist released ir, we on the contrary, are able to love or hate an album released by our favourite artist or band, because we are here for the music, that's the best definition of open minded, listen first and approve or not an album.
I spent my first youth listening Wakeman solo stuff, I would had bowed before him adter his first albums, but was able to notice that Rhapsodies was not remotely on the same level.
Look at my avatar, it's obvious I'm a fan of Peter Gabriel, but OVO was terrible according to m taste and I'm able to accept it as I accept PG1, 2 and 3 are excellent.
A close minded fan loves the artist, no matter if they reease a terrible album.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 07 2010 at 14:10
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KingCrimson250
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Posted: May 07 2010 at 09:39 |
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Er, no one's talking 35 years ago. That would be mid 70s. We're talking 80s. A lot of groups had the guts to try synthesizers by that point. Also no one is suggesting that a musician is not good because they sound cheesy. We are suggesting that music is not good because it sounds cheesy. That is something completely different.
And I'm not sure what that second sentence is supposed to mean. Are you suggesting that synthesizers from the 80s are different from modern synthesizers? If so, that's pretty obvious.
I'm not entirely convinced you've been following the discussion. It seems more like you just dropped in to let us know how close-minded we are being for not appreciating every facet of music ever.
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moshkito
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Posted: May 06 2010 at 13:19 |
Hi,
Wow ... cheesy guitar and keyboards?
Does that person know that synthesizers were not the synthesizers that you hear and know today? Does that person care?
And to suggest that a musician is not good because it sounded cheesy? When we're talking 35 years ago and only a handful of groups had the guts to even try synthesizers until they got simpler a few years later?
Wow!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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It was the worst of times and the best of times
