This year's Helloween thread

Alright, 3 pages of arguments really isn't going to do anything, and it's not going to prevent or help Helloween's inclusion into PA. Can an admin look into this and consider evaluation? To the best of my knowledge, they have never been "properly" evaluated for Prog Related.

-Jeff

J-Man wrote: Ultimately, I think we should NEVER base our opinions on other sites. Some websites are more liberal than us, and some ar more conservative. We need to find the happy medium, and make our own valid opinion. -Jeff

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 04 2009 at 23:45

Windhawk wrote: J-Man wrote: Ultimately, I think we should NEVER base our opinions on other sites. Some websites are more liberal than us, and some ar more conservative. We need to find the happy medium, and make our own valid opinion. -Jeff Clappies for this one :-)

Thanks Olav

Any other comments on this topic?

-Jeff

The T wrote: Ok Ivan, so when is Progressiveears a valid reference? Only when they match your musical beliefs? You seem to have mentioned them as reference first.... Now you discredit them....

I think that's why we shouldn't ever use other progressive rock sites to help our decision in adding bands. We should base our decision on our own opinions, not what other sites think. Here's a couple key reasons why I believe this:

1. Other sites may be thinking the same thing. Let's say the ProgressoR collaborators are considering Helloween. One of the reasons why they're holding back on adding them is because "ProgArchives doesn't have them". If all websites thought like this NO PROG RELATED BANDS WOULD EVER GET ADDED! I think this is a good example of just "going with the flow".
   
2. I think this is a pretty unfair way of decision making. Basing our decision on another site's opinion is not very fair if you ask me. As evident by the discussion about ProgressiveEars, not all sites are very reliable. They have some bands in their archives that would NEVER be on PA. Should we add Cannibal Corpse because they're on ProgressiveEars?
3. Lastly, I think it works different when adding ProgRelated bands. Helloween is NOT widely regarded as progressive rock, and many websites would not add them because of that. We're talking about a Prog-Related addition here. I think all websites have different definitions of "what's Prog Related and what's not"

Ultimately, I think we should NEVER base our opinions on other sites. Some websites are more liberal than us, and some ar more conservative. We need to find the happy medium, and make our own valid opinion.

-Jeff

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: OK, my mistake, but only the same site who has added Jerry Lee Lewis and William Shatner as Prog, has them as Prog.   Iván

hehe - guess you recognize the sweet feeling you get when you encounter someone coming forward with statements you know aren't factual, eh ;-)

Windhawk wrote: Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Helloween has just been added to Progressiveears, I verified before posting, but any way, they have William Shatner.   It's a great place but has some things I don't agree with.   Iván     Helloween were added to their artist directory in February 2008, when I reviewed a Helloween CD for them. Check with Flloyd of you like ;-)

Windhawk wrote: Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Have checked several Prog sites Progressive Ears (Not included) GEPR (Not included) Proggnosis (Not included) Progressor (Not included) Please, aren't we insisting too much when all the people who REALLY know about them makes no Prog connection? Iván    You're actually wrong on Progressive Ears:    Helloween From what I know of the band they are power metal through and through, so based on my knowledge I'd say they should not be in here. Still, interesting to see Prog Ears have them listed as prog metal.

Also interesting. Vitaly Menshikov, who runs the Progressor site, is of the opinion that 2, arguably 3, of Helloween's albums can be classified as prog metal. With "Keeper of the Seven Keys Part II" as the best among those.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Have checked several Prog sites Progressive Ears (Not included) GEPR (Not included) Proggnosis (Not included) Progressor (Not included) Please, aren't we insisting too much when all the people who REALLY know about them makes no Prog connection? Iván

You're actually wrong on Progressive Ears:

   Helloween


From what I know of the band they are power metal through and through, so based on my knowledge I'd say they should not be in here.

Still, interesting to see Prog Ears have them listed as prog metal.

I really didn't want my first post to be on an "isn't this prog?" thread, but I couldn't resist this post by the King. Below the quote are 100% my personal opinions based on my personal listening experience. If you get the feeling that I'm talking big, that's only because I'm talking to myself. None of the below are rules or anything like that whatsoever, and absolutely no offense intended. I've just tried to draw a prog-related picture of Helloween as I see it.
Just FYI, so that you will know what I mean when I say something vague: The ideal type of a progressive band in my own little prog world is Van der Graaf Generator, and naturally the one feature I value the most in any progressive effort is sincerity.

King By-Tor wrote: Anyone who says that The Legacy is not a progressive metal album is purely insane.

I could have agreed, had the album been purely the king for a thousand years. Helloween is one of my all time favourite bands, and of course I too get some proggy feel from them every now and then. And as for the Legacy album, they've come as close as they can to prog. But even in that album, and actually in the entire catalog of Helloween, only one song, "The King for a 1000 Years" qualifies as progressive. Being in total denial of the genre called prog-metal and detesting each and every band named therein, I even think that that one song is the one and only progressive metal song ever made--though nothing magnificent.

Still, that doesn't make Helloween a prog or even related band. Early Helloween seems to have tried hard to give progressive output, as evident in the "epic" shots in the Keeper duo. But both "Keeper of the Seven Keys" and "Halloween" were...well...lame. Both songs had proggy moments, but overall both were overlong, poorly composed mixtures of various melodies and rhythms that didn't really blend at all. And other than those two wannabe-prog epic failures, nothing in pre-2005 Helloween connects them to progressive rock, save for hints of prog influences here and there.

Since Deris came, it appeared that the band gave up trying (posing?) to be prog and rather focused on making better and more serious power metal, which in turn brought them closer to prog with every new album: better thought-of compositions, only slightly complex but pretty solid song structures, meaningful lyrics in effort to deal with significant issues, etc. However, since we came to see their latest output "Gambling with the Devil", it has appeared that the Legacy was the best that they can ever get: One progressive metal song in 13 (I don't see "Occasion Avenue" as another epic failure--indeed I revealed to last.fm that I loved the song, but it's not much prog either, at least nothing in comparison to the K4a1000Y, so it doesn't count for me).

On the other hand, of course, there is this weak probability that the next album by Helloween will feature several progressive songs and good non-prog power metal songs with numerous proggy moments. In that case, I suppose the admins too will start considering them as prog-related. And I truly wish for it, for I feel that the band has the potential to go prog but somehow always get stuck midway.