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el dingo 
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 Topic: I'm prolly the only one here but....Genesis?
Posted: May 16 2009 at 06:04 |
 mr.cub wrote:
SgtPepper67 wrote:
I disagree Genesis overdid anything and I don't think they were pretentious, at least not as much as many other prog bands. Their arrangements doesn't sound forced or unnecessarily complex, they usually added what their songs needed IMO.
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Good to see somebody in agreement...like Ivan said, its not as if they solo for the sake of soloing and their arrangements are impeccable in that regard |
Someone else is in agreement here too... me 
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It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 10:31 |
Evolver wrote:
Sorry, Ivan, but listen to the complexities of Close To The Edge, Relayer, Siberian Khatru (sp?). Genesis played some good stuff, but nothing like this. Genesis never gave me the feeling, as a musician, that I couldn't conceive or play the music (not the lyrics) myself. |
Let's go step by Step
1.- Yes is one of the most accessible Prog bands (I remember Micky, one of the most fanatic Yes fans, calling them Pop Prog), their early material is basicallńy ROCK, simple and plain, they make a final product and overlay the arrangements, take the Organ solo of Close to the Edge and it's a boring track, but you add it and it's one of the best moments in Prog....But you can play the song with or without keyboards and still be coherent.
While the roots of Yes are in Beatles, Moody Blues and bands as Simon and Garfunkel,. the roots of Genesis can be traced diirectly to Prog, in other words to In the Court of the Crimson King, as a fact, their sound changed radically when Peter took a copy of In the Court to the first Trespass sessions.
Yes never broke with the past, still there are echoes of their first simpler albums in all their discography, you find nothing pre-Trespass in Prog Genesis.
2.- Genesis was an integral product, if you take a keyboard note from Musical Box, you make it unlistenable, you destroy the logic, the coherence. In Yes the keyboards are the cherry on the top of the cake, in Genesis the interplay between guitar and keyboards is the whole cake.
3.- Relayer is as complex as The Lamb, if not less.
4.- Siberian Khatru is a Rock track with complex arrangements, nothing more, while Fountain of Salmacis or Giant Hogweed are a compact work from which you can't remove anything.
My two cents
Iván
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harmonium.ro
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 10:04 |
BrufordFreak wrote:
PROBLEM SOVED: Turn off the radio, put on some head phones, turn on Selling England By The Pound, get under some blankets, turn off the lights, let Gabe and the boys take you away. You won't ever be the same. |
There, even better. 
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BrufordFreak
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Posted: May 15 2009 at 09:52 |
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PROBLEM SOVED: Turn off the radio, put on some head phones, turn on The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, get under some blankets, turn off the lights, let Gabe and the boys take you away. You won't ever be the same.
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Evolver
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Posted: May 14 2009 at 17:40 |
SgtPepper67 wrote:
Genesis was not simplistic at all, even in their more pop albums there were still some complex arrangements. Maybe their music is not as complex as Yes or King Crimson, but I couldn't care less, it's not that being more complex make them better in my opinion. I like Yes for example, but to me their music some times lack the emotion Genesis music had, probably because they focused more on showing their musicianship while Genesis focused more on the songs. |
That's why you're still a sergeant. 
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SgtPepper67
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Posted: May 14 2009 at 15:01 |
npjnpj wrote:
I'm very definitily on the pro-Genesis side, and I mean BOTH phases.
Let me elaborate on what I mean with 'both':
Contrary to general opinion, I tend to see two distinct Genesis eras: The first is before Abacab, and the second is Abacab and later. Note that for me it's not relevant whether Gabriel or Collins were the singers, I just see this abrupt change of style that Abacab presented.
But, as I said: I'm a fan of both 'incarnations'. |
I see both phases exactly the same way, and I like both, although I definitely prefer the first one.
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In the end the love you take is equal to the love you made...
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npjnpj
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Posted: May 14 2009 at 02:19 |
I'm very definitily on the pro-Genesis side, and I mean BOTH phases.
Let me elaborate on what I mean with 'both':
Contrary to general opinion, I tend to see two distinct Genesis eras: The first is before Abacab, and the second is Abacab and later. Note that for me it's not relevant whether Gabriel or Collins were the singers, I just see this abrupt change of style that Abacab presented.
But, as I said: I'm a fan of both 'incarnations'.
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A Person
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Posted: May 13 2009 at 22:52 |
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Lately I have been listening to The Lamb and I think it is a great example of why Genesis is a great band. It is conceptually cohesive, for some reason I keep on comparing it to The Wall, but they are definitely not equals. The music is perfect, the way everyone in the band plays amazingly but keep the music from becoming focused on their virtuosity. Peter Gabriel is superb on The Lamb, songs like In the Cage are proof that he isn't just showy and weird, even if he dresses like a flower on stage. Even if you don't think it is good prog rock, and that you prefer bands like Yes, I would still say that Genesis made some great music.
About Genesis: When you listen to SEBTP, is it just me or does it sound like the some of the most English sounding music you have heard? That is the impression it always gives me, especially Epping Forest.
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SgtPepper67
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Posted: May 13 2009 at 19:17 |
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Genesis was not simplistic at all, even in their more pop albums there were still some complex arrangements. Maybe their music is not as complex as Yes or King Crimson, but I couldn't care less, it's not that being more complex make them better in my opinion. I like Yes for example, but to me their music some times lack the emotion Genesis music had, probably because they focused more on showing their musicianship while Genesis focused more on the songs.
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In the end the love you take is equal to the love you made...
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Evolver
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Posted: May 13 2009 at 16:43 |
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Sorry, Ivan, but listen to the complexities of Close To The Edge, Relayer, Siberian Khatru (sp?). Genesis played some good stuff, but nothing like this. Genesis never gave me the feeling, as a musician, that I couldn't conceive or play the music (not the lyrics) myself.
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Atavachron
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Posted: May 13 2009 at 16:20 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
Genesis were one of the most democratic of bands both in their compositional credits and their
instrumental writing. This is abundantly illustrated where no single individual
dominates as the 'spotlight soloist' over the rest. All the band are employed in the creation of a
multi layered and ever changing dynamic 'whole' and this set them apart from so many of their
contemporaries. The overriding priority here is always melodic whether in statement or enhancement
and of all the prog giants it was perhaps Genesis who were least guilty of virtuosity as a end in
itself. (You mean they don't disappear up their own backsides on the solos ?) Yep.
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well put
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lazland
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Joined: October 28 2008
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Posted: May 13 2009 at 14:20 |
[The fact is that while Yes was more based in soloing, Genesis was more worried of creating atmospheres, creating a unique interplay between Banks and Hackett, they made a different kind of music, but simple....No way.
I have no doubt that Genesis made some of the most elaborate music in the 70's.
Iván [/QUOTE] Absolutely spot on. Accuse them of what you will, but simplistic? Never, not even in the later years. Domino comes to mind - a hugely complex track with many changes in mood and timing. What about No Son of Mine, which has an incredibly complex keyboard signature. I could go on, but the fact is that Genesis were always a songwriting collective, in every manifestation of the band.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 12 2009 at 13:46 |
Evolver wrote:
I originally did not like Genesis because I associated them with a group of poeple I didn't especially like in high school back in the 70's. Years later I revisited the band, and while I enjoy many of their songs, I find them more simplistic in general than their contemporaries, like Yes, ELP, KC, Gentle Giant.
And the majority of Collins-era Genesis is just crap. |
Well. more simple than King Crimson and Gentle Giant..............That's obvious, KC and gentle Giant were much more complex than most early bands.
But YES????
Yes is a great band, probably the one with more Prog leanings, after Jonathan King's debut (From Genesis to the Revelation), the only simple tracks in Genesis evolution were For Absent Friends, More Fool Me and I Know what I like, but structurally, Yes was much more closer to Rock and mainstream, yes, they did awesome records, but The Yes Album is mostly complex Rock.
Trespass is probably one of the darkest and less friendly Symphonic albums ever.
From Nursery Cryme, songs as Giant Hogweed, that mark the first time double tapping technique was used in Rock or the fantastic Musical Box, two radical changes before 2 minutes, a complex development with one of the most elaborate instrumental breaks in Prog and an ultra elaborate coda, is anything but simple, so the rest of the album except For Absent Friends.
Foxtrot has Supper's ready, one of the few really multi part epics and the incredibly elaborate Can-Utility and the Coastliners, with more changes that Michael Jackson's face.
SEBTP, is friendlier, because two tracks, but Firth of Fifth and specially Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, have nothing simplistic.
The lamb must be the most complex and elaborate album from 70's Symphonic, still today very few know what Gabriel did.
The fact is that while Yes was more based in soloing, Genesis was more worried of creating atmospheres, creating a unique interplay between Banks and Hackett, they made a different kind of music, but simple....No way.
I have no doubt that Genesis made some of the most elaborate music in the 70's.
Iván
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: May 12 2009 at 13:34 |
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As far as I am concerned Genesis is a closed circuit baby. Enjoy what they've done or dislike whatever else they did.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Debra59
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Posted: May 12 2009 at 13:26 |
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I actually adore most of Duke, Some of And then there were three, and a couple off of ABACAB. But that about kills it for me.
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TonyJames
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Posted: May 12 2009 at 13:11 |
<<And the majority of Collins-era Genesis is just crap.>> That's a bit harsh there Evo. Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering are two of my favorite Genesis recordings...and I'm a huge Gabriel fan. Sure, they're no Selling England or Nursery....but "crap"?
It's funny...I'm 48. The first Genesis I'd ever heard was Trick. I was smitten. Then Wind and Wuthering. (The reason it took me until I was 16 to listen to Genesis is because I had my head up my arse with YES since I was 11. And I mean that in a good way.) I'd heard Three Sides Live's version of Supper's Ready before I heard the original. Maybe that's why I love Trick, Wind and even Then There Were Three. But that being said...I then went back and submersed myself in the PG Genesis...and love it all as well.
Not sure why you're not "getting it" Trip. But chances are, if you're hearing any Genesis on the radio, it's from the Duke era on...and in my humble opinion...that's the REAL CRAP! (OK....somebody please flame me for being a hypocrite.)
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Evolver
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Posted: May 12 2009 at 10:45 |
I originally did not like Genesis because I associated them with a group of poeple I didn't especially like in high school back in the 70's. Years later I revisited the band, and while I enjoy many of their songs, I find them more simplistic in general than their contemporaries, like Yes, ELP, KC, Gentle Giant.
And the majority of Collins-era Genesis is just crap.
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Debra59
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Posted: May 12 2009 at 09:15 |
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I personally listened to these albums when they came out. Repetition over the years only makes me fonder of the recordings. Perhaps since you didn't hear them for years like many of us have, you don't get it like we do. I played Genesis the whole time my kids grew up. i always thought they would grow to appreciate them. Well finally a few weeks ago my 22 yr old son said "Mom i bought Selling England By the Pound vinyl last week." I was so proud! I also took them to see a cover band do their music with full costumes, choreography, and everything. A lot of their songs sound plain at first but they build up to some of the most amazing guitar and keyboard sections that just blow you away. I can hear their influence in a lot of music today. Listen to Firth of Fifth. The guitar solo is one of the most hearfelt, bittersweet sounding playing I have ever heard. Cinama show, Carpet Crawlers, Fly on a windsheild, Ripples, Mad Man Moon...... I don't know you may never like them. Time will tell.
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: May 11 2009 at 08:44 |
Genesis were one of the most democratic of bands both in their compositional credits and their
instrumental writing. This is abundantly illustrated where no single individual
dominates as the 'spotlight soloist' over the rest. All the band are employed in the creation of a
multi layered and ever changing dynamic 'whole' and this set them apart from so many of their
contemporaries. The overriding priority here is always melodic whether in statement or enhancement
and of all the prog giants it was perhaps Genesis who were least guilty of virtuosity as a end in
itself. (You mean they don't disappear up their own backsides on the solos ?) Yep.
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hercules amp
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Posted: May 11 2009 at 07:34 |
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I used to really dislike them, actually now I think about it, I still do.
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I'm prolly the only one here but....Genesis?
