Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Can Retro Prog be Progressive?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedCan Retro Prog be Progressive?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
russellk View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 28 2005
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 782
Direct Link To This Post Topic: Can Retro Prog be Progressive?
    Posted: November 20 2008 at 08:59
Edit: duplicate post.


Edited by russellk - November 20 2008 at 09:00
Back to Top
russellk View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 28 2005
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 782
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2008 at 08:56
Originally posted by Scratchy Scratchy wrote:

Retro-prog is when a musician takes previously created prog rock music almost note for note or
re-arranges it slightly to create a sound that replicates it.He is thus not going through a
creative process to create his music - basically copying a previous piece of work.If you
listen to The Flower Kings - Retropolis album you should understand what I mean (although not
totally a perfect example).Not quite plagarism but very close to being so.



What specific piece of music does 'Retropolis' copy almost note for note?

I think you have completely overstated your case. This is why so-called 'retro' prog has a bad name among some people. Not even STARCASTLE recreate YES albums almost note for note. They wrote original compositions but tried to sound like YES. Most 'retro' prog bands simply use the sounds of the classic 70s prog bands as one of their inspirations. There's no copying at all.

Arguments like yours are why the term 'retro' has people annoyed.


Edited by russellk - November 20 2008 at 09:02
Back to Top
Scratchy View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: October 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 110
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2008 at 06:33

I think progressive rock should have two elements to have full credibility to the form:-
1 - It should push/progress music forward - have new or contemporary elements to it.
2 - It should should have a progressive flow to it - not have a verse,bridge,corus format etc.

A true progressive rock musician would naturely have both these elements within his mindset.
Older forms of music can be incorporated into the sound as long as it is presented in a
contempory format.
When Symphonic prog first emerged Classical forms of music were rearranged
so they could be used with rock instruments & was generally a fusion of styles, anyway,
which gave it a contempory sound - as an example.Classical music has a natural flow on the
other hand anyway.
Retro-prog is when a musician takes previously created prog rock music almost note for note or
re-arranges it slightly to create a sound that replicates it.He is thus not going through a
creative process to create his music - basically copying a previous piece of work.If you
listen to The Flower Kings - Retropolis album you should understand what I mean (although not
totally a perfect example).Not quite plagarism but very close to being so.

It has been mentioned above that prog doesn't need pop music's need to keep on re-inventing
itself.I disagree, the modern rock musician would naturally want to push the boundaries (especially prog)
due to/or as a consequence of their rebellious instincts.

To reply to the original question.Retro prog does progress due to its natural flow,but I don't
think most prog listeners appreciate it that much because it does not push the boundaries of
music.
Back to Top
infandous View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2008 at 15:35
I just read all the previous posts, and have come to a definite conclusion:  I have way too much free time LOL

That, and I sure do love me some of that retro-prog goodness Thumbs Up
Back to Top
AlanD View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 28 2008
Location: Portsmouth
Status: Offline
Points: 135
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2008 at 11:29
For me, the most interesting artists of all are those that attempt to confound genre classification (eg Beatles, Stackridge, XTC) - it's a path that I conciously follow with my own composition and recording, imagination can lead you towards personal progress and some extraordinary places. Discovery is the name of the game...forget sales.
AlanD
Back to Top
Q6 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: May 18 2008
Location: York, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 126
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2008 at 10:19
Are genres not there just to help collation? They don't affect the song, the band or the listener. They just help people find the song, the band or listener. So genres are names we follow to find that which we like. Does it matter that we use the same name as long as it is descriptive? Cold / chilly / bitter out / freezing..., all I know is it means wear a jumper?

Neo prog, retro prog, metal prog etc? These mean..., "hiphop/europop/house etc not found here", so I may just have a wander and see what I can find...,

 
Back to Top
Jim Garten View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin & Razor Guru

Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2008 at 03:26
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

the test of intelligence is knowing when a recursive loop has entered an infinite regress
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

void argue()
{
   argue();
}
Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:

int argue()
{
   argue();
   return null;
}


Do you know, I couldn't have put this better myself.

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
Back to Top
jplanet View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: August 30 2006
Location: NJ
Status: Offline
Points: 799
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2008 at 01:02
Just a little sly addition to Deathrabbit's function::

int argue()
{
   argue();
   return null;
}


Edited by jplanet - November 17 2008 at 01:03
Back to Top
Failcore View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 27 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 4625
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2008 at 00:53
I deliberately left out the inductive step to showcase the perpetual nature of argumentativeness. I could do this:

void argue()
{
   argue();
}

:P


Edited by Deathrabbit - November 17 2008 at 00:54
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2008 at 19:25
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

Humans are a while loop. while(others==wrong) { printf("I am right\n"); }

I sincerely hope there are some engineers here to get this joke :P.
Clap
taking it one level deeper (especially for fans of Douglas R. Hofstadter's Godel, Escher & Bach): the test of intelligence is knowing when a recursive loop has entered an infinite regress. As Russell points out - you need an escape clause to break-out of the loop.
What?
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2008 at 18:55
ahhhhh...  oh yes he can.   The infamous Fragile debate bro'.  MIcky took him.. round about the 20th page when the site changed the release date to the correct one LOL  It just takes one as stubborn as him.. and has his patience.

ahhh.. good times... that is what hooked me on the site.. Ivan had invited me over here like a couple of weeks earlier. 
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2008 at 18:51
Originally posted by russellk russellk wrote:

Hey, I just want to see if it's possible for someone else to have the last word. Consider it a social experiment.
 
No. You'll never beat a lawyer, even if the reason assists you Russselk. Ivan will never lose a debate on this website. LOL
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2008 at 13:08
Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

*is sad cos everyone seems to have just ignored my posts completelyCry*


Want some popcorn?
Back to Top
Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2008 at 04:56
*is sad cos everyone seems to have just ignored my posts completelyCry*
Back to Top
russellk View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 28 2005
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 782
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2008 at 02:40
I'm not an engineer, but I used to do fortran programming. I'd add a defensive/aggressive 'if then else' subroutine to that one, Deathrabbit.

Laughter's essential in the midst of such a serious debate. LOL
Back to Top
jplanet View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: August 30 2006
Location: NJ
Status: Offline
Points: 799
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2008 at 02:21
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

Humans are a while loop. while(others==wrong) { printf("I am right\n"); }

I sincerely hope there are some engineers here to get this joke :P.


if(music=="popular"){
 return "claim it is unoriginal";
} else {
 return "call it progressive";
}

:-P
Back to Top
Failcore View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 27 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 4625
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2008 at 01:50
Humans are a while loop. while(others==wrong) { printf("I am right\n"); }

I sincerely hope there are some engineers here to get this joke :P.
Back to Top
russellk View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 28 2005
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 782
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2008 at 00:10
Hey, I just want to see if it's possible for someone else to have the last word. Consider it a social experiment.
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 23:15
*Ran out of popcorn...*

Disapprove

*Searching for Goobers on the floor*



Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 20:25
Originally posted by russellk russellk wrote:


As for your arguments:

1) I didn't refer to neo-prog, I referred to crossover prog. That sub-genre wasn't created for an emerging new style, but as a different category to encompass existing music. That's changing history. If we do that, we could also do retro-prog. I repeat, I don't think we should, but we could.
 
I know you referred to Crossover, but I used an example: For example, in 1975 there was no need for Neo Prog because there was no Neo Prog.

I also mention Crossover, which I believe is a mistake, because we already have Prog Related and IMO the borders between the two categories are too thin.

And neither is crossover a change of history, is just a new name for something alreeady existed.

2) No contradiction at all. I said that others had made up a genre called retro-rock, and said that I think 'retro' applies to an attitude, not a genre. I don't see any contradiction, just a disagreement. Others think there should be a genre called retro-rock, while I think retro-rock is an attitude to making music. So: I think it's an attitude, others think it's a genre. Clear? One is what I think, the other is what some others think.
 
But you are using both terms for the purpose, you say you don't believe Retro is a genre, but later you say, Retro is a genre top reinforce your position.

3. Is there a genre called retro rock? Amazon seems to think so: http://www.amazon.com/Best-Neo-Punk-Retro-Rock/lm/XEYKD0KF53U1. VH1.com seems to think so: http://shop.vh1.com/Retro-Rock_stcVVcatId424123VVviewcat.htm. Last FM seems to think so: http://www.last.fm/group/Retro+rock.
As for defined parameters, we'd better not start insisting on agreed definitions as proof of existence, otherwise prog rock will be ruled out too! Wink
 
None of them defines it as a genre, I believe they are talking more of a fashion or an instrument to sell some stuff they have.
 
As a fact last FM http://www.lastfm.es/tag/retro-rock defines Retro Rock as a tag, "a term used by 124 persons 210 times" it's in that page,
 
That same page defines Pearl Jam (A 90's band) as retro Rock Wink and in the low part lof the page iterally says: "We don't have a description of this tag, can you help us?
 
So hardly they are defining retro rock as a genre, they don't even know what the f*ck it is. LOL
 
Lets see if Amazon defines retro Rock: Oops, they are using the term Retro Rock/Neo punk LMAO, so they don't even have a clue, as a fact there's no definition.

Prog is defined in several ways, but Retro Rock has absolutely no parameters, it's just a tag that some places use in one way and others in a totally different way to describe different bands from different eras, I don't see it (Neither the stores you talk about) only mention some albums as Neo Rock whjatever it is, a fashion, a loose term but haven't read that is defined as a genre.

4. I don't buy your argument that prog was created to be timeless for a moment. It was a fashion like any other, in my opinion.
 
I totally disagree, if Prog was a fashion, it would had vanished, Prog artists made complex compositions knowing they would never be massive but with the will of trascendence, that's for me one of the main cgharacteristics  of art abnd prog is art.
 
That it's now out of fashion ought to be clear to everyone. Being a hippie is out of fashion, but there are a few out there still wearing the beads and cheesecloth shirts. Same with prog. It's still out there and going strong, but it's no longer the trendsetter it was 35 years ago.
 
I don't believe Prog is outr of fashion, simply because it never was a fashion, it was almost a cult genre with a very small percentage of fans
 
Of course prog is not dead, and you make a logical error in asserting that something can only be 'retro' if it is dead. Not so. But it is out of fashion, and so any recreation must by definition be retro.
 
Of course it has to be dead, read the dictionary
 
 
Retro:  relating to, reviving, or being the styles and especially the fashions of the past : fashionably nostalgic or old-fashioned <a retro look>
Revival:  an act or instance of reviving
Reviving: to restore to consciousness or life
 
So, in order for something to be revived, it has to be dead, and i still say that Symphonic never died.
 
You don't need to buy my interpretation, just read the dictionary.


I absolutely agree with your definition of retro, and would argue that the prog revival is retro by that definition.
 
Unless Prog was dead, there's no revival by definition.

So thanks for taking the time to make some arguments.

Can retro be progressive? Yes. Is it a negative term? I don't think so. Just my opinion.
 
You are one of the few that doesn't use the term in a derogatory way, I have to deal with that every day with Symphonic and much worst with neo Prog.

Iván





Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 15 2008 at 20:27
            
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.551 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.