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Topic Closed25 More Keyboardists?
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Poll Question: Your pick of these 25 keyboardists?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
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2 [3.51%]
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10 [17.54%]
5 [8.77%]
2 [3.51%]
2 [3.51%]
3 [5.26%]
10 [17.54%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [1.75%]
2 [3.51%]
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5 [8.77%]
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This topic is closed, no new votes accepted

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Zargus View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 01 2008 at 06:52
Mike Ratledge (Soft Machine) from this list.
 
 
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Points: 3449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 23:10
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

Iván, it was not me who made the statement about Genesis (though I might well have Wink).  My fault for jumping into the fray.  I was just replying in Emerson's favor.  I'm not calling any of these musicians amateurs.  I already said E does not stand up to Corea as a player or composer, and there is much to question about his musical ethics (topic for a separate post).  I still say he was the premier rock keyboard player of the era (and this goes back to the Nice days). 
 
No Jammun, I don't believe your post was harsh, it was  your opinion and said in a very educate way.
 
But if I followed replying, probably somebody with less respect than you (Could be a Genesis or an ELP fanboy), could have caused problems, and all cause by a rude post that wasn't your's.
 
Iván
 
Thanks, Iván.  I just wanted to make sure it was clear I was calling no one an amateur.  I respect all of these bands and their keyboard players, whether I like them or not (well maybe Kansas would be an exception LOL).  I happen to play keyboards myself and unless we're talking Louie Louie, I unfortunately understand the complexity of their music.  Which is why I love prog.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 22:53
Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

Iván, it was not me who made the statement about Genesis (though I might well have Wink).  My fault for jumping into the fray.  I was just replying in Emerson's favor.  I'm not calling any of these musicians amateurs.  I already said E does not stand up to Corea as a player or composer, and there is much to question about his musical ethics (topic for a separate post).  I still say he was the premier rock keyboard player of the era (and this goes back to the Nice days). 
 
No Jammun, I don't believe your post was harsh, it was  your opinion and said in a very educate way.
 
But if I followed replying, probably somebody with less respect than you (Could be a Genesis or an ELP fanboy), could have caused problems, and all cause by a rude post that wasn't your's.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 30 2008 at 22:54
            
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Points: 3449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 22:48
Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

Anyway, before the flames get too rough..
This thread needs more cowbell.
 
Dutifully noted, Mississippi Queen queued for play LOL
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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 22:38
Anyway, before the flames get too rough..
This thread needs more cowbell.
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Points: 3449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 22:37
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

 
Well there may be no ELP album that compares to Genesis' Foxtrot or Nursery Crime (strictly a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact), but at their best (a matter of opinion, again) ELP just is heads above Genesis.
 
That's exactly the point, an agressive post against a memebr of a band some of us love can cause problems, because none of us has the same taste, I could still insist in how superior is Genesis FOR ME, and probably will end in a silly fight.
 
So before calling a first class musician an amateur, better think in what problems this may cause.
 
Iván
Iván, it was not me who made the statement about Genesis (though I might well have Wink).  My fault for jumping into the fray.  I was just replying in Emerson's favor.  I'm not calling any of these musicians amateurs.  I already said E does not stand up to Corea as a player or composer, and there is much to question about his musical ethics (topic for a separate post).  I still say he was the premier rock keyboard player of the era (and this goes back to the Nice days). 
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 22:30
I agree, Ivan.  Let us continue elsewhere. Will you start a thread please?  I am interested in discussing this. 
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 22:29
Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

 
Well there may be no ELP album that compares to Genesis' Foxtrot or Nursery Crime (strictly a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact), but at their best (a matter of opinion, again) ELP just is heads above Genesis.
 
That's exactly the point, an agressive post against a memebr of a band some of us love can cause problems, because none of us has the same taste, I could still insist in how superior is Genesis FOR ME, and probably will end in a silly fight.
 
So before calling a first class musician an amateur, better think in what problems this may cause.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 3449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 22:22
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by convocation convocation wrote:

I am reluctant to reply negatively about Genesis, at least up to "Trick of the Tail", but Banks is really an amateur compared to Emerson. Of course,  i would never disagree about the self-indulgence of  his symphonic adventures.  Still, Emerson is technically and artistically better than Banks can hope to measure up to.
This is only a comparison of two keyboardists, not bands.
 
I honestly doubt it:
  1. Technically: I don't know, at that level you can't say who is better, except when the difference is too obvious (As in the case of Moraz), but as far as I know Banks has a more solid classical formation than Keith, being spectacular and pompous is not being better in all cases..
  2. Artistically: Doubt it more, any person who has writen the music of most of the golden era Genesis songs, is less artist than nobody. As a fact, I believe there's no Emerson or ELP album that compares to Foxtrot or Nursery Cryme, and that's Banks music mostly.

My 2 cents

Iván
 
Well there may be no ELP album that compares to Genesis' Foxtrot or Nursery Crime (strictly a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact), but at their best (a matter of opinion, again) ELP just is heads above Genesis.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 21:44
Originally posted by convocation convocation wrote:

I am reluctant to reply negatively about Genesis, at least up to "Trick of the Tail", but Banks is really an amateur compared to Emerson. Of course,  i would never disagree about the self-indulgence of  his symphonic adventures.  Still, Emerson is technically and artistically better than Banks can hope to measure up to.
This is only a comparison of two keyboardists, not bands.
 
I honestly doubt it:
  1. Technically: I don't know, at that level you can't say who is better, except when the difference is too obvious (As in the case of Moraz), but as far as I know Banks has a more solid classical formation than Keith, being spectacular and pompous is not being better in all cases..
  2. Artistically: Doubt it more, any person who has writen the music of most of the golden era Genesis songs, is less artist than nobody. As a fact, I believe there's no Emerson or ELP album that compares to Foxtrot or Nursery Cryme, and that's Banks music mostly.

My 2 cents

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 30 2008 at 21:46
            
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Points: 70 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 21:23
I am reluctant to reply negatively about Genesis, at least up to "Trick of the Tail", but Banks is really an amateur compared to Emerson. Of course,  i would never disagree about the self-indulgence of  his symphonic adventures.  Still, Emerson is technically and artistically better than Banks can hope to measure up to.
This is only a comparison of two keyboardists, not bands.
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Points: 3449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 21:17
Emerson.  Others more skilled as performers and writers (Corea, for one) but, and I know I am sounding like a broken record, Emerson was the first rock keyboard player to attain status originally reserved for guitarists, bassists, drummers, etc.  His influence cannot be underestimated.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 20:01
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Ivan, I think you're thinking of the much-maligned Live at the Whiskey concert, which happens to be one of my favorites, because it's so heavy- even though Steve looked like a complete moron in that getup.  LOL

He was high on coke, too.

Anyway, it's fine if you think of Kerry as a composer- he is, and great at it- but in order to compose something (at least back in the 70s), it was generally true that you had to be able to play it.  I realize Wakeman or Emerson could play circles around Livgren, but that's not why I voted for him.  I voted for him precisely because of his compositional efforts as a keyboardist- look at how many solo albums Wakeman has.  And how many of them suck? 
 
There we have a difference, I can separete the composer from the kwyboardist.
 
For example, I belive (and verified with my mother who is a graduate concertist) that Patrick Moraz and Vittoorio Nocenzzi (Banco) are miles beyond Wakeman or Emerson in technique, so I always vote for them as keyboardoists. But I don't like a single Moraz solo lbum, so if you ask for songwritter, I go with Wakeman and Emerson without any doubt.


Hint:  I counted FOURTY-SIX studio albums from Rick Wakeman on PA that have less than a 3.00 rating, and that's not counting those that have a 3.00 rating.  Fourty-six crappy albums from a fantastic musician. 
 
Wakeman had a problem, his contract with A&M was terrible, he thought he had ttime to make his own albums when the contract ended, but he had two heart attacks before he was 25, that scared the hell out of him, so he started to write popular albums when he could...What was popular? New Age.
 
But the few great Wakeman albums are cornerstones of Prog.


So this is point- the guy may have the chops, but if he can't make anything anyone wants to listen to, what good is it if he can play it well (unless someone else is the brains behind the operation)?
 
But the few excellent albums (at least 10) are fantastic and mopre than most musicians do in a lifetime career.


I'll also admit that Proto-Kaw is hit or miss for me (although there are more hits than misses), but Christianity is far from the issue.  I believe a Christian musician should profess their faith in their music and give glory to God- that's what Christianity's about, right? 
 
You want me to be honest? I only like what Livegren did with Kansas, none of his solo stuff, Proto Kaw or whatever is remotely good for me.
 
Now, Christian Rock, we had a long debate about this, and my position is that music must keep away from Evangelism and politics.
 
 I believe that if an artist uses his music as religious propaganda (No matter what religion, even Catholic and I'm a  Catholic believer), is no different from a TV jingle.

I mean, I don't understand why it's so accepted that Livgren's early works about reincarnation and Urantia are so accepted, but as soon as he writes about Christ, he "almost destroyed Kansas?"  Steve Walsh had problems with Livgren's mystical songwriting even before the latter became a Chrstian.  If you ask me, Steve Walshs's need to be validated as a pop-rocker almost destroyed Kansas.
 
I believe you're wrong.
 
Kansas was an excellent band until Walsh first and Steinhard after left, in that moment they started to sound as Christian Pop with Jon Elefante. The band was terrible, sounded worst than ever, all the personality left with Walsh and Robby
 
On an interview in http://parablemania.ektopos.com/archives/2006/06/phil_ehart_inte.html Phil Ehart who is also a Christian, is clear:
 
Quote He reveals that he himself is a Christian, but he didn't think it was fair to the band members who didn't share Kerry Livgren's views to turn the band into what effectively was acting as a Christian band.
 
By Jeremy Pierce
 
But that wasn't all, after their worst album (Drastic Measures) and with contracts pending, Livegren,  and Hope left the band and poor Phil Ehart stayed alone with Rich Williams.
 
Phil became producer, called Walsh who not only came, but brought Billy Greer to cover the hole left by Dave Hope, they recruited  Steve Morse and later David Ragsdale, only then the band started to sound great again.
 
So, if somebody almost destroyed Kansas (First turning them into a Christian Pop band and later leaving the band with all his Christian army), is Kerry Livegren.
 
On the other hand, Walsh came back when the band needed him more.
 
Iván
 
BTW: We are kidnapping the poll with other issues Epignosis, so if you want to follow with this, better open a new thread.
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 30 2008 at 20:09
            
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Points: 6673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 19:22
Polls such as these should omit Wakeman and Emerson (they are simply a notch a part) =too much technique, style and material. (Same goes for Bruford/Peart and Squire/Pastorius)Confused
 
I went with my avatar too Eddie Jobson (Curved Air, Tull, UK, Roxy and solo) is just yummy.
Minnear, Ratledge, Moraz, Fritz etc... all deserve votes , they are progmeisters all.
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Originally posted by jimidom jimidom wrote:

I gotta go with Chick Corea, but  I was happy to see Mike Pinder from the Moodies on this list. Smile
 
Yeah Mike Pinder is great Smile
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 16:41
Excellent list, though there are too many I love, and they're too diverse on style, so there is really no preference over others..

No vote, once again.
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Originally posted by Roj M30 Roj M30 wrote:

Wha??  No votes for Eddie Jobson??  Time to put matters right, though it will make no difference in the result.
 
So many great keyboardists to choose from here Roid, but I've always loved Jobson's playing, although there hasn't been much output from him for so long.  So I'll get Eddie off the mark.  Don't think he'll beat Rick or Emo though.
 
Incidentally, I always thought Livgren played the majority of the keys in Kansas and that Walsh stepped up to the plate when the band were playing live and Kerry was on guitar duty.  Guess I was wrong.
 
Jobson is cool, glad you placed the vote on him  Clap
 
Thanks Roj, I don't think so either... you placed a vote on him and that's great though.
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 16:37
Ivan, I think you're thinking of the much-maligned Live at the Whiskey concert, which happens to be one of my favorites, because it's so heavy- even though Steve looked like a complete moron in that getup.  LOL

He was high on coke, too.

Anyway, it's fine if you think of Kerry as a composer- he is, and great at it- but in order to compose something (at least back in the 70s), it was generally true that you had to be able to play it.  I realize Wakeman or Emerson could play circles around Livgren, but that's not why I voted for him.  I voted for him precisely because of his compositional efforts as a keyboardist- look at how many solo albums Wakeman has.  And how many of them suck? 

Hint:  I counted FOURTY-SIX studio albums from Rick Wakeman on PA that have less than a 3.00 rating, and that's not counting those that have a 3.00 rating.  Fourty-six crappy albums from a fantastic musician. 

So this is point- the guy may have the chops, but if he can't make anything anyone wants to listen to, what good is it if he can play it well (unless someone else is the brains behind the operation)?

I'll also admit that Proto-Kaw is hit or miss for me (although there are more hits than misses), but Christianity is far from the issue.  I believe a Christian musician should profess their faith in their music and give glory to God- that's what Christianity's about, right? 

I mean, I don't understand why it's so accepted that Livgren's early works about reincarnation and Urantia are so accepted, but as soon as he writes about Christ, he "almost destroyed Kansas?"  Steve Walsh had problems with Livgren's mystical songwriting even before the latter became a Chrstian.  If you ask me, Steve Walshs's need to be validated as a pop-rocker almost destroyed Kansas.
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Points: 32181 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 15:55
Kerry Livgren is heavily overlooked. 
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 15:51
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Roger (I feel like I've been mentioning this album quite a bit lately), but on the second disc of the new release of Two for the Show, the parts are mixed so that Kerry Livgren's guitar and keys are one side, and Rich Williams's guitar and Steve Walsh's keys are on the other (as I understand it).  And you can clearly hear these parts separated with headphones.  There are phenomenal keyboard parts on both sides.
 
Interesting issue, on the early days and even worst the first time David Ragsdale was a violin player, Steve was more of a showman, so he left the keyboards on stage and went for the mike, there's one VHS where he's dressed and dancing as david Lee Roth. LOL
 
Only when his voice suffered, he started to leave Robby as the frontman and he sung more behind the keys as in Device Voice Drums
 
But I rely more in the studio albums, since the first one Stebve is especifically credited for organ and piano, while Kerruy with the generic term keyboards.
 
Quote
Kansas - Kansas
 
- Phil Ehart / drums
- Dave Hope / bass, backing vocals
- Kerry Livgren / lead & Rhythm guitar, backing vocals, keyboards
- Robbie Steinhardt / violin, lead vocals
- Steve Walsh / lead vocals, organ, piano, congas
- Rich Williams / lead guitar

Honestly Kerry did his main work as composer, being that he played guitar, but the lead guitar was always Rich and played keys, but Steve was the lead. 

The video here from the 1980 Audio-Visions tour of "No One Together" has Kerry on keyboards only, if I'm not mistaken, and it's fantastic piano playing.
 
Nobody says he's not good, most members of big bands are good at
their instruments, bit not outstanding necesarilly. For example Peter Gabriel does an good job playing keys on the Secret World Tour on some tracks, but he's not a virtuoso, only supporting Jean Claude Naimro.
 
Maybe my prejudices come because Kerry almost destroyed Kansas during his fundamentalist days and the fact that I absolutely can't stand Proto Kaw.
 
Iván
            
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