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Certif1ed
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Joined: April 08 2004
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Topic: why the hell do we even argue? Posted: June 19 2008 at 04:13 |
WinterLight wrote:
Dick Heath wrote:
What we teach at university is to be somewhat cynical of what you read, even from textbooks and refereed journals, because inevitably there will be errors - and avoid the web as a source being too often of unproven and unrefereed information - and realise that those who speak from first hand knowledge usually know what they are talking about.
I think that you mean "critical" rather than "cynical" (the distinction is non-trivial). |
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No - he meant cynical.
I've been to a British university, and that is exactly what I was taught.
Edited by Certif1ed - June 19 2008 at 04:14
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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debrewguy
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Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
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Points: 3596
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Posted: June 16 2008 at 19:54 |
As a Canadian who gets to watch/read/listen to the American Right go on about how the media is leftist, while conveniently forgetting that their friends actually own most of it ... I say if you're going to back an argument with citations & references, remember that your facts might not be as factual to me as they are to you. BE it history, music, or just about any subject or topic, chances are that there diverging points of view that are often held as objectively true by the many sides (or interests in some cases) in the debate. Or, what we think we know is just what we think we know.
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
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Posted: June 16 2008 at 19:48 |
Chameleon wrote:
We wouldn't have such senseless debates if Magma wasn't so obviously superior to every other band. |
... you forgot to add this little phrase "that sings in kobiain".
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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The T
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 18:52 |
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Visitor13
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Location: Poland
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Posted: June 14 2008 at 10:36 |
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Padraic
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Location: Pennsylvania
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Points: 31169
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Posted: June 12 2008 at 22:50 |
stonebeard wrote:
prog music is boring to argue about |
yeah
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
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Points: 16715
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Posted: June 12 2008 at 22:48 |
Well sorry, but I couldn't tell because I don't know him at all and what he said is exactly what 4chan and /b/ claim about themselves. So I'm pretty sure he wasn't joking. That doesn't make him one of them, but since he knew enough to make it /b/, I doubt that was said out of ignorance.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981
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Posted: June 12 2008 at 15:33 |
stonebeard wrote:
prog music is boring to argue about |
Exactly the problem.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: June 12 2008 at 15:29 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
heyitsthatguy wrote:
also they're not ruining the internet, they ARE the internet. The good, the bad, all of it
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I see you have swallowed whole their egocentric self-aggrandizing propoganda. Well there's no point in discussing this further, because if you don't see why that's wrong then it's something you have to realize on your own. |
I'm almost positive that was sarcastic and I think you're taking sh*t too seriously.
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micky
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Posted: June 12 2008 at 15:27 |
Jim Garten wrote:
Dick Heath wrote:
I get really irritated at those (usually) prolific correpondents here who have this proclavity to argue because they are full of so-called facts they have read, which contradict those facts coming from those with first hand experience, been eye witnesses or whatever. If you have noticed I stopped correponding/arguing on certain subjects, it is often because I feel I've hit a brickwall of intransigence. I wish people would listen or read and have the good grace to acknowledge somebody may know better. Whilst I can overwhelm with data both correct and less reliable, I'm more than willing to listen to those who are experienced and learn. What we teach at university is to be somewhat cynical of what you read, even from textbooks and refereed journals, because inevitably there will be errors - and avoid the web as a source being too often of unproven and unrefereed information - and realise that those who speak from first hand knowledge usually know what they are talking about. I get do really get pissed at having non Brits telling about me about recent British history, and quoting non-British social historians(?) writing on unrefereed websites and then writing selectively on a very complicated subjects. The problem is recognising and avoiding secondhand opinions made into facts. |
      
Dick, you've just defined the expression "hit the nail on the head", and I salute you; I've said it on this site often before, there is a big difference between holding a strong opinion and being self opinionated.
Personally, I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, as let's face it, when you're proven wrong, you learn something.
There are those who instead of searching Google or Wikipedia should instead check the dictionary definitions of the words 'Courtesy' and 'Humility'
Nice one Dick.
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you know.. that is one hell of a post Richard. My clappies don't compare to Jim's.. but as it is with the prized clappies... one can never have too many      Five clappies... a masterpiece of PA's posting.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Dick Heath
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Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
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Points: 12818
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Posted: June 12 2008 at 15:23 |
I glad that somebody hasn't worked out if I was getting specifically worked up and not spotting what I was refering to. However, to be more specific about my reference to "historians" - here4 I was refering to somebody who write about recent social history (from 3 to 4000 miles from his/her subject) and employs the web as his/her medium, so smacks as being an amateur suggesting lack of resource to thoroughly research, as well as avoiding one's peers - hence my cynicism
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10266
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Posted: June 12 2008 at 13:56 |
WinterLight wrote:
Dick Heath wrote:
I get really irritated at those (usually) prolific correpondents here who have this proclavity to argue because they are full of so-called facts they have read, which contradict those facts coming from those with first hand experience, been eye witnesses or whatever.
Yet it's well-understood that eyewitness testimony is not completely reliable; in particular, it should be corroborated by other testimony or previously established (i.e., accepted) results or facts. For example, if someone claims to have witnessed an occurrence which is physically or logically impossible, then of course I'm going to be skeptical, if not dismissive, of their assertion.
If you have noticed I stopped correponding/arguing on certain subjects, it is often because I feel I've hit a brickwall of intransigence. I wish people would listen or read and have the good grace to acknowledge somebody may know better. Whilst I can overwhelm with data both correct and less reliable, I'm more than willing to listen to those who are experienced and learn. What we teach at university is to be somewhat cynical of what you read, even from textbooks and refereed journals, because inevitably there will be errors - and avoid the web as a source being too often of unproven and unrefereed information - and realise that those who speak from first hand knowledge usually know what they are talking about.
I think that you mean "critical" rather than "cynical" (the distinction is non-trivial). Indeed, the scholarly literature is generally filled with mutual criticism (there's this methodological flaw in a certain experiment, this proof isn't quite correct, etc.), and often such criticism gives rise to important discoveries. With this said, I'm not sure how to interpret your assertion that "those who speak from first hand knowledge usually know what they are talking about." What would it mean, for example, to have "first hand knowledge" in mathematics? Either its meaning is empty or trivial. Everyone who studies mathematics acquires "first hand knowledge" of the subject in the sense that such knowledge is, by definition, indistinguishable on the basis of its bearer; whence we see that such an interpretation is trivial. Otherwise, we can't give an intelligible definition of "first hand knowledge" in mathematics. You might argue that a professional mathematician might have a "deeper" knowledge than say a neophyte student; however, this is misleading: it is "deeper" only in the sense that there's more of it, i.e., the mathematician has a wider breadth of knowledge, and thus can construct more intricate relations (analogous to the advantages a virtuoso musician has over someone just beginning an instrument). If, on the other hand, we may say that experts have "first hand knowledge" of their field expertise; but this is largely marketing: experts are experts on the basis of their ability to articulate the current ideological consensus in their field--this is plainly not knowledge in any substantive sense of the term.
I get do really get pissed at having non Brits telling about me about recent British history, and quoting non-British social historians(?) writing on unrefereed websites and then writing selectively on a very complicated subjects. The problem is recognising and avoiding secondhand opinions made into facts.
So, is it not possible for, say, an US historian, who has devoted her academic career to research British history to have an authoritative opinion on that very topic?
Certainly it is possible; else it would mean nobody could be an expert on Roman history, for example. And on the other hand, how many Brits are really experts at British history?
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Moatilliatta
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 01 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3083
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Posted: June 12 2008 at 13:38 |
I get do really get pissed at having non Brits telling about me about recent British history, and quoting non-British social historians(?) writing on unrefereed websites and then writing selectively on a very complicated subjects. The problem is recognising and avoiding secondhand opinions made into facts. So, is it not possible for, say, an US historian, who has devoted her academic career to research British history to have an authoritative opinion on that very topic?[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
No! An American should not be interested in any other country other than America! That's not our way! So, we have to teach her a lesson. And Americans turn opinions into facts, I know I do (only with my own opinions of course), so he couldn't trust that US historian anyhow.
Also, I don't like arguing, but I can't helping debating sometimes.
Edited by Moatilliatta - June 12 2008 at 13:42
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www.last.fm/user/ThisCenotaph

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WinterLight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 09 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 424
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Posted: June 12 2008 at 13:15 |
Dick Heath wrote:
I get really irritated at those (usually) prolific correpondents here who have this proclavity to argue because they are full of so-called facts they have read, which contradict those facts coming from those with first hand experience, been eye witnesses or whatever.
Yet it's well-understood that eyewitness testimony is not completely reliable; in particular, it should be corroborated by other testimony or previously established (i.e., accepted) results or facts. For example, if someone claims to have witnessed an occurrence which is physically or logically impossible, then of course I'm going to be skeptical, if not dismissive, of their assertion.
If you have noticed I stopped correponding/arguing on certain subjects, it is often because I feel I've hit a brickwall of intransigence. I wish people would listen or read and have the good grace to acknowledge somebody may know better. Whilst I can overwhelm with data both correct and less reliable, I'm more than willing to listen to those who are experienced and learn. What we teach at university is to be somewhat cynical of what you read, even from textbooks and refereed journals, because inevitably there will be errors - and avoid the web as a source being too often of unproven and unrefereed information - and realise that those who speak from first hand knowledge usually know what they are talking about.
I think that you mean "critical" rather than "cynical" (the distinction is non-trivial). Indeed, the scholarly literature is generally filled with mutual criticism (there's this methodological flaw in a certain experiment, this proof isn't quite correct, etc.), and often such criticism gives rise to important discoveries. With this said, I'm not sure how to interpret your assertion that "those who speak from first hand knowledge usually know what they are talking about." What would it mean, for example, to have "first hand knowledge" in mathematics? Either its meaning is empty or trivial. Everyone who studies mathematics acquires "first hand knowledge" of the subject in the sense that such knowledge is, by definition, indistinguishable on the basis of its bearer; whence we see that such an interpretation is trivial. Otherwise, we can't give an intelligible definition of "first hand knowledge" in mathematics. You might argue that a professional mathematician might have a "deeper" knowledge than say a neophyte student; however, this is misleading: it is "deeper" only in the sense that there's more of it, i.e., the mathematician has a wider breadth of knowledge, and thus can construct more intricate relations (analogous to the advantages a virtuoso musician has over someone just beginning an instrument). If, on the other hand, we may say that experts have "first hand knowledge" of their field expertise; but this is largely marketing: experts are experts on the basis of their ability to articulate the current ideological consensus in their field--this is plainly not knowledge in any substantive sense of the term.
I get do really get pissed at having non Brits telling about me about recent British history, and quoting non-British social historians(?) writing on unrefereed websites and then writing selectively on a very complicated subjects. The problem is recognising and avoiding secondhand opinions made into facts.
So, is it not possible for, say, an US historian, who has devoted her academic career to research British history to have an authoritative opinion on that very topic?
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
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Posted: June 12 2008 at 12:26 |
Dick Heath wrote:
I get really irritated at those (usually) prolific correpondents here who have this proclavity to argue because they are full of so-called facts they have read, which contradict those facts coming from those with first hand experience, been eye witnesses or whatever. If you have noticed I stopped correponding/arguing on certain subjects, it is often because I feel I've hit a brickwall of intransigence. I wish people would listen or read and have the good grace to acknowledge somebody may know better. Whilst I can overwhelm with data both correct and less reliable, I'm more than willing to listen to those who are experienced and learn. What we teach at university is to be somewhat cynical of what you read, even from textbooks and refereed journals, because inevitably there will be errors - and avoid the web as a source being too often of unproven and unrefereed information - and realise that those who speak from first hand knowledge usually know what they are talking about. I get do really get pissed at having non Brits telling about me about recent British history, and quoting non-British social historians(?) writing on unrefereed websites and then writing selectively on a very complicated subjects. The problem is recognising and avoiding secondhand opinions made into facts. |
      
Dick, you've just defined the expression "hit the nail on the head", and I salute you; I've said it on this site often before, there is a big difference between holding a strong opinion and being self opinionated.
Personally, I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, as let's face it, when you're proven wrong, you learn something.
There are those who instead of searching Google or Wikipedia should instead check the dictionary definitions of the words 'Courtesy' and 'Humility'
Nice one Dick.
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12818
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Posted: June 12 2008 at 12:18 |
I get really irritated at those (usually) prolific correpondents here who have this proclavity to argue because they are full of so-called facts they have read, which contradict those facts coming from those with first hand experience, been eye witnesses or whatever. If you have noticed I stopped correponding/arguing on certain subjects, it is often because I feel I've hit a brickwall of intransigence. I wish people would listen or read and have the good grace to acknowledge somebody may know better. Whilst I can overwhelm with data both correct and less reliable, I'm more than willing to listen to those who are experienced and learn. What we teach at university is to be somewhat cynical of what you read, even from textbooks and refereed journals, because inevitably there will be errors - and avoid the web as a source being too often of unproven and unrefereed information - and realise that those who speak from first hand knowledge usually know what they are talking about. I get do really get pissed at having non Brits telling about me about recent British history, and quoting non-British social historians(?) writing on unrefereed websites and then writing selectively on a very complicated subjects. The problem is recognising and avoiding secondhand opinions made into facts.
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10266
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Posted: June 12 2008 at 11:40 |
"Oh, excuse me, is this the five minute argument or the full half hour"? (John Cleese in the Monty Python's "Argument Clinic" sketch)
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Certif1ed
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Joined: April 08 2004
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Posted: June 12 2008 at 02:53 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
I never argue, I merely partake in reasoned and sometimes heated debate... |
your style can be misunderstood ... you're very straight forward in pointing out things you don't agree with, and often you add cynicism to the mix - or at least some tongue in cheek remarks which - together with the hefty criticism - can easily start an argument.
I know first hand ... 
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Anyone can be misunderstood - that's why questions are so important.
If everyone asked more questions, there would be less arguing.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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JayDee
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Posted: June 12 2008 at 02:21 |
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Henry Plainview
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Joined: May 26 2008
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Posted: June 11 2008 at 20:39 |
stonebeard wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
go on 4chan |
I suspected as much, /B/TARD! No, 4chan is much much worse than PA could ever be, and it makes me sad that you can even say that. 4chan is a goddamn hellhole, which is what they're going for, but they're still ruining the internet.
What's the point of talking about anything, then? It all comes down to talking about opinion and taste, pretty much. I agree that Dream Theater vs Symphony X polls are stupid, but there's more to it than that. I come here for music recommendations and to discuss music I like. People who come here for a fight about whoever are either trolling or really dumb. But we already knew that, didn't we?
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/b/ is more f**ked up than not, but it's tons more interesting than PA....
and I have my fair share of useless and not-useless threads. that one was fun
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If you find painfully stupid and unfunny memes repeated endlessly interesting, then I guess so. I suppose horrible pictures are interesting in their own way, but from what I've heard that's happening less with all the obnoxious newfgts. But even diluted by Digg and all the other large communitys' userbases, it's still a worthless hellhole.
Fair enough. I just found it funny when I saw it and in the context of this thread. Especially since I love "jamming razors down my ears".
heyitsthatguy wrote:
also they're not ruining the internet, they ARE the internet. The good, the bad, all of it
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I see you have swallowed whole their egocentric self-aggrandizing propoganda. Well there's no point in discussing this further, because if you don't see why that's wrong then it's something you have to realize on your own.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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