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Certif1ed 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
 Topic: Prog albums pre-Crimson KingPosted: May 31 2008 at 14:18 |
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^An early "rock opera", but the first concept album was "Wee Small Hours" by Frank Sinatra (1957). |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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GoldenDeathMusic
Forum Newbie 
Joined: May 31 2008 Location: London, ON Status: Offline Points: 11 |
Posted: May 31 2008 at 13:55 |
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S.F. Sorrow by the Pretty Things ('68)
great album - arguably the first 'concept' album |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: May 23 2008 at 04:52 |
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Here's the main issue with anything pre-ITCOTCK - it's not so much that people are re-writing history, as people either didn't write it in the first place, or wrote it from a very skewed point of view;
Most books or articles I've read on Prog (indeed, rock in general) concentrate on the well-knowns and a cross-section of bands known to and loved by the author. The author generally goes on to connect his favourite bands as being essential to overall development - a very common trap in music journalism.
Sometimes it's the lesser-knowns - the unsung heroes - who did play a significant part, but generally, all musical trends are led from the top. The issue here is getting the balance, as the guys at the top picked up ideas from the little guys, and the little guys were spurred on (whether through imitation or direct rejection of what the established bands stood for) by the big guys. Phew...
Most of these books also take an authoritative stance from the viewpoint of "I was there". Well, "there was but one place, and as you read the many articles on the subject, you realise that every author who was "there" has their own ideas - obviously and naturally, depending on where "there" was. With the huge number of bands in varying scenes around the world, no-one can categorically state that they were everywhere and knew everything that every band released.
I'd say that It's actually easier for someone born after the time to make objective judgements - providing the right perspective is kept. People who were "there" are extremely valuable for providing facts connected with their particular spheres.
The main problem with the history and definition of Prog Rock is that as yet, it has not been satisfactorily documented (ie free from the author's bias and a useful and workable definition that is commonly agreed on) - hence the frequency of questions on the subject.
The internet is really useful in digging out further data - but like any mine of data, you need to spend some time sifting out the real gold from the crud.
But history does need to be re-written to match the facts
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: March 02 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 4202 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 04:41 |
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I consider Incredible String Band to be much more than just prog folk, and incomparable to pub(folk)rockers like Strawbs. Anyway, I just made a list I think is pretty relevant and wrote; ...albums that might have some of what you look for. Not suggesting that it all started with ISB.
Sounds to me like the whole british (and italian) progscene seemed to. (while Zappa's obviously more important to Canterbury, jazzrock and RIO) |
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 04:13 |
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The 1968 album I was thinking of earlier is "Eclection" by Eclection - which pushes many Prog Rock buttons, but is a bit lacking in the formal development department. Listening to it now - it's a great psych/folk-based album with some great subtleties that seem rooted in Jefferson Airplane/Fairport Convention, with flavours of the Moodies "Days of Future Passed" in the orchestrations, heralding both Genesis and Renaissance (especially the latter, but without the annoying Beethoven quotes). It NEEDS to be in the archives - I'll get onto it...
It only says it's Progressive Rock on the packaging - who am I to argue?
 The McCartney piece I was thinking of is called "Carnival of Light" - and it's legendary.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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The Whistler
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: August 30 2006 Location: LA, CA Status: Offline Points: 7113 |
Posted: May 22 2008 at 02:46 |
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Beautiful Day is here? Very nice.
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"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: May 21 2008 at 14:51 |
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Very good album - and very progressive.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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zicIy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 04 2007 Status: Offline Points: 413 |
Posted: May 21 2008 at 14:39 |
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Roaring Sixties and Farinas > FAMILY> " MUSIC IN A DOLLīS HOUSE", 1968
ZAPPA > "FREAK OUT" (btw, very first double LP prog album with 24 musicians who were played on the album), 1966
QUICKSILVER MESSENGER SERVICE > s/t, 1968
STEVE MILLER BAND > "CHILDREN OF FUTURE", 1968
IRON BUTTERFLY> "IN - A - GADDA - DA - VIDA", 1968
ITīS A BEAUTIFUL DAY > s/t ( btw, so great WHITE BIRD the song!), 1969
MOTT (THE HOOPLE) > s/t, 1969
THE MOVE > s/t , 1967
PROCOL HARUM > "SHINE ON BRIGHTLY", 1967
JETHRO TULL > "THIS WAS", 1968
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: May 21 2008 at 13:37 |
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In the purest sense of what Progressive Rock is, ITCOTCK is without a doubt the first Prog Rock album proper.
There are many "prototypes", as indicated by Dick, and all the other posts - I'd include Graham Bond's Organisation as probably the earliest, along with The Who's "A Quick One..." as mentioned above.
The first time I know of the term appearing on an album was 1968 - I've temporarily forgotten what that album was - but that could lay claim to being the first, if only because it used the term.
I would personally lay the blame squarely at Pink Floyd's feet - the whole "Piper..." album is a lot less naive than most would (dis)credit it for, and IO is not "vanilla" psychedelia.
Even among the psychedelic scene, there were many albums that are more progressive than pure "psych" (Fifty Foot Hose has already been mentioned, I'm delighted to see) - and, of course, there was a thriving progressive blues scene in the UK. Yardbirds have been mentioned, but, surprisingly, not Johnny Winters' "Progressive Blues Experiment" (not as progressive as the title would have you believe, but a clear indication of the "movement").
There was also an underground electronics scene that often gets overlooked - the leading name in the UK being the wonderful Delia Derbyshire. Her involvement in the 1,000,000 volts sound and light rave (I forget the real name) is crucial - and it's often forgotten that Paul McCartney composed an electronic piece which remains unheard by the rest of us for that festival. Other important electronics wizards of the time were Varese (who famously influenced Zappa) and Pierre Henry (who later worked with Spooky Tooth on the disastrous/fascinating album "Ceremony").
The others mentioned, Moodies, Procol Harum, etc. (more pop groups with progressive leanings, like Kaleidoscope and Tomorrow)., were in second place, progressively speaking, to contemporary bands like The Nice - and bands like Art (later Spooky Tooth) and Clouds (previously 1-2-3), who were instrumental (sic) in developing progressive music.
Having recently acquired both "Scrapbook" and "Watercolour Days", I realise what the latter were doing, albeit in a rather hamfisted manner. "Watercolour Days" is at least as progressive as ITCOTCK, if more poppy in style and lacking both finesse and long songs - but every piece is a marvel of truly progressive songwriting (with very sucky drum fills).
There are also the concept albums of the Pretty Things and the Small Faces (et al), not to mention Andrew Lloyd Webber's Rock Opera which all predate Prog Rock.
There's probably other stuff I forgot, but Prog Rock (as opposed to "mere" progressive rock) arose out of this scene, but there is simply nothing that fuses as many varying elements is ITCOTCK that predates it, only stuff which comes close.
Edited by Certif1ed - May 21 2008 at 14:48 |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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omri
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 1250 |
Posted: May 21 2008 at 13:17 |
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I'm not sure we can ever agree of what is a full prog album. When I listen to ITCOTCK (which I don't do much nowadays since as Bang! I find it a bit immature but not that bad) I hear strong connection to the moodies' Days of future passed. It is not the first prog album but unlike some others which were released few month before this was a very influencial album and can be described as the first time the world realised that there's a new kind of music. There are many better prog albums including some of the moodies but it is a milestone in the history of prog and I think it is the first milestone. |
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omri
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 28054 |
Posted: May 21 2008 at 03:39 |
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The Nice -Ars Long Vita Brevis (1968) has a side long symphonic prog track inspired by Bach.
Also Crazy World Of Arthur Brown did a concept album around that time as well.They had a young drummer called Carl Palmer who with organist Vince Crane formed Atomic Rooster in 1969.
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bang!
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 16 2008 Location: brooklyn ny Status: Offline Points: 32 |
Posted: May 21 2008 at 00:11 |
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ok, look... nothing is more annoying, and ultimately kinda dumb, than splitting hairs over genre definitions (listen to some 20 year olds on an overnight college radio show arguing about a song being "house" or "freestyle" or some such. ) But this stuff about long tracks, no filler, blah blah blah... the first 2 softs records weren't "progressive"? piper at the gates of dawn? freak out? and while we're at it, king crimson's probably my favorite band, been so for over 35 years, but i wasn't long out of puberty when i realized the "in the court of the you know what" was an embarrassingly immature, puerile, plodding mess. it's childish.
the first concert i ever attended was the central park show from the "usa" tour, the show after which david cross left. they opened with "lark's tongues pt.2". i was 14 and even then i knew that THEY knew what "grown-up" music was, and why they weren't playing the silly stuff anymore. they had to play "schizoid man" forever though, and they hated it, but, you know, it's a business... |
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glen- "funny world..."
h.i. "damn funny." glen- "somebody oughtta sell tickets..." h.i. "i'd buy one..." |
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The Whistler
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 30 2006 Location: LA, CA Status: Offline Points: 7113 |
Posted: May 20 2008 at 23:45 |
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Okay, what is that supposed to mean? "Thirty to fifty minutes of progressive music...without any short fillers?"
Okay, wait a minute, what about "I Talk to the Wind?" That's ONLY JUST psycho folk. It's certainly not long; therefore, it CANNOT BE progressive. Sorry. That's just the way things work.
Ergo, Inna Court shouldn't be regarded as the first full blown prog rock album. That dubious honor must fall, therefore, on Emerson Lake and Palmer or something.
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"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12813 |
Posted: May 18 2008 at 08:31 |
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Surely we are coming to one tentative conclusion: progressive rock really can't be said to have arrived until a band issued a complete 35 to 50 minutes of progressive music across two sides of vinyl, without any short fillers. Whoops there goes one of my favourites, beit released 1971, The Yes Album but indeed also the 1968 recording/1969 release Touch. I feel very slightly reinforced in this argument listening to the first two solo albums by Terry Reid and the Tomorrow album - each of these three albums have prog-like tunes, but also lightweight pop tunes (no doubt with record companies pressing for hit singles still), and the inevitable covers of other's tunes. Therefore we come back to ITCOTCK and the first Renaissance albums coming in first and second?
Edited by Dick Heath - May 18 2008 at 08:32 |
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The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12813 |
Posted: May 18 2008 at 08:20 |
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Knowing how long Floyd's sets were especially with the light show, psychedelic music for the potheads and LSD trippers. |
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The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
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The Whistler
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 30 2006 Location: LA, CA Status: Offline Points: 7113 |
Posted: May 18 2008 at 03:54 |
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Psh! Days of Future Passed can't be the first prog album. First off, it's WAY too popish; it...Does...Not...RAWK!!! No metal hands for it.
See, for something to be proggy, it has to contain some of the rocky, and therefore, "Schizo" certainly counts. The Moodies were pretty much art-pop at that point. Which, of course, good and all. But it's still pop. If you count dem Moodies as the first proggers, then you'd have to contradict yourself, and say that Pet Sounds was the first prog album, predating Inna Court AND Sgt. Peppah (and, hell, you'd probably be right).
Taking that into account, I would say that Procol Harum were definately at the forefront. They were the first band that REALLY fused art and rock into a single, gooey, awesome mass. Despite the keyboards, they really could make something rock and be intelligent (see: "Christmas Camel," "Repent Walpurgis," "Conquistador," etc).
To dig deeper back, I recently came to realize how innovative "A Quick One" must have been. If that thing had recieved the budget that Townsend had wanted, it would be considered an all time classic instead of a cult curio.
And props to my man Dick Heath there (heya Dick! I don't know you, do I?) for mentioning the Yardbirds; certainly something like "Still I'm Sad" must have seemed to have come from nowhere, and scared the living f**k out of everyone who heard it. Gregorian chants and lame poetry in a singles band? Awesome.
Final notes: although when we consider their classic "epic" tracks, the Doors doubtless come off as psychadelic ("The End"), jazzy ("Riders on the Storm"), or a proto-prog hybrid at best ("When the Music's Over" and "L.A. Woman"); however, something with the spread, intent, and PRETENTION of the "Celebration of the Lizard" suite comes to mind as a step towards the progressive. However, for a truly shattering track, the interested should listen to "The Soft Parade," a nine-minute, multi-part suite, VERY mature sounding for a band in 1969, the SAME FRIGGIN' YEAR as Inna Court.
In closing, to answer the initial question, what was the first prog rock album? Well DUH...This Was.
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"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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KrakAtack
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 06 2008 Location: San Diego Status: Offline Points: 165 |
Posted: May 18 2008 at 03:40 |
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But stand by to be swamped with psychedelia and avant rock/blues, which was not heard as prog until the young liberals here (who were neither born nor increasingly appear to have read the subject in any depth) started to rewrite history.
That leaves me out as I was born the same year as the first B-52 flew.......................1953......................and I am not even close to being a liberal.........Libertarian yes...............liberal....no way............ |
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KrakAtack
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 06 2008 Location: San Diego Status: Offline Points: 165 |
Posted: May 18 2008 at 03:38 |
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IO is an early example of prog............a lot of Traffic also was............even Time Has Come Today by the Chambers Brothers..........and DOA by BloodRock
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 03 2007 Location: The Heartland Status: Offline Points: 16913 |
Posted: May 18 2008 at 00:47 |
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Curious, as far as individual tracks go, how many of you consider "Interstellar Overdrive," which I believe was being played live in late '66 though not yet recorded, to be an early example of progressive rock?
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bang!
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 16 2008 Location: brooklyn ny Status: Offline Points: 32 |
Posted: May 18 2008 at 00:40 |
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if you count family you can also count everything jon hiseman and everything relf via yardbirds and it's a slippery slope, it's not what we really mean by prog rock and the first incredible string band record was weirder than "h's b d " anyway but then that's prog folk and a whole different conversation. the strawbs only get mentioned on this site once they got a mellotron but it's basically the same music as "all our own work" . what are we talking about here? red crayola, quicksilver, even lee michaels?
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glen- "funny world..."
h.i. "damn funny." glen- "somebody oughtta sell tickets..." h.i. "i'd buy one..." |
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Prog albums pre-Crimson King
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Dick Heath wrote: