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Jim Irving View Drop Down
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Points: 1 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Touch: First American prog band?
    Posted: August 21 2008 at 14:17

Roll Over is usually the only New York Rock *and Roll) Ensemble album people have heard, and I agree it's a straight-ahead rock effort. (A very good one, IMHO, but it was also the first rock album I ever bought, on vinyl. I also saw them live at a college concert. Fond memories.) But their first and second were more proto-prog. They did some interesting blends of classical instrumentation and themes with rock elements, particularly on the first two albums. Faithful Friends' "Brandenburg" is the best example; they had done some shows with Leonard Bernstein and the NY Philharmonic, and this one sounds like it was written as a set-ender for a band-orchestra concert.

The third album "Reflections" was a very odd collaboration with Greek composer Manos Hadjidakis of "Never On Sunday" fame. I don't have that one any more but have al their others.

I proposed NYR(&R)E for addition as Proto-Prog some time ago, but I'm a lurker not a poster and don't have much cred here. FWIW, here's the (somewhat over-the-top) description I proposed:

"Between the Beatles' "Sgt. Pepper" in '67 and the emergence of Yes in '69, there was a mini-movement to incorporate classical musical forms and instruments into rock, and vice versa. This had some snob appeal and was widely touted by critics at the time; viewed from another angle, the budding "classical rock" genre (later coopted as moldy "classic rock") was an early foray into prog. THE NEW YORK ROCK AND ROLL ENSEMBLE was formed by Julliard students Michael Kamen, Martin Fulterman, and Dorian Rudnytsky and rock musicians Clif Nivison and Brian Corrigan in 1967. The band's eponymous debut, released on Arco in 1968, included a tight segue from a trio chamber piece on oboe and cello into the poppy rock piece "She's Gone" and the extended-form "The Seasons" that went from a change-time medieval dance passage to an atmospheric organ image of winter. "Faithful Friends", released in 1969, boasted the group's take on the Brandenburg Concerto, which the group performed with Leonard Bernstein and the NY Philharmonic and in TV appearances. The tangential "Reflections", a collaboration with Greek composer Manos Hadjidakis, was next in 1970. After a film appearance in "Zachariah", the band shed rhythm guitarist Corrigan, shortened their name to THE NEW YORK ROCK ENSEMBLE, and released their best-charting album "Roll Over" in 1971. The classical influences had retreated behind the album cover's tough-guy rocker image, but 3-on-2 tempos, orchestral fillips, oboes, cello, and Hank DeVito's pedal steel enlivened a tight, fun rock-and-roll set. The group called it quits after 1972's tired-sounding "Freedomburger"."
Jim
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Points: 3449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 21:17
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

Let's not forget The New York Rock & Roll Ensemble, which at least had prog aspirations.  I think their first album dates from 1968.  One of the members was Michael Kamen, whose name you might recognize.
 
Another band from 1969, Ford Theatre, also had some prog leanings, though perhaps more Doors influenced.
 
From www.answers (and enough for me not to order a copy of their first album on Amazon.UK. Does this smack of Ekseption but not mainstream prog rockers? I can think of modern 4 or 5 string quartets who do this sort of thing but probably wouldn't get into PA):
 
An apocryphal tale says Juilliard Music Conservatory-trained musicians Michael Kamen, Marty Fulterman, and Dorian Rudnytsky decided in the late '60s in New York that they could make bigger bucks as rock stars than as classical musicians. The results of this legendary experiment were inconclusive. Forming the New York Rock and Roll Ensemble, they broke with tradition on their first two albums -- 1968's self-titled debut and Faithful Friends the next year -- by using classical music instruments in rock songs and using rock instruments on classical pieces. This fusion, daring at the time, impressed legendary conductor Leonard Bernstein so much that he invited the group to appear at one of his Young People's Concerts with the New York Philharmonic Orchestra. For their third Atco release, Reflections, they collaborated with Greek composer Manos Hadjidakis, best known for scoring music for the movie Never on Sunday. Rhythm guitarist Brian Corrigan departed after the third album, and pedal steel guitar player Hank Devito joined. The band then shortened its name to New York Rock Ensemble and switched to Columbia. Released in 1971, Roll Over was their most overtly rock album to date and their biggest seller, although they fell well short of Led Zeppelin on the Billboard charts. The band dispersed after Freedomburger, although Rudnytsky, Fulterman, and Corrigan had one final shot with Flattering Foe.... Devito surfaced years later as a stalwart player in the bands of Rodney Crowell and Rosanne Cash. Only Kamen fulfilled the original trio's objective of successfully melding classical and pop music to make big bucks. After being music director for David Bowie's Diamond Dogs tour, he went on to a thriving career scoring films. After his score for Brazil gained him wide exposure, he hit the mother lode composing music for the Die Hard and Lethal Weapon series. In 1991, Kamen earned an Academy Award nomination for "(Everything I Do) I Do it for You," the Bryan Adams monster international pop smash hit from Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. Kamen has also worked with Eric Clapton, Pink Floyd, Liona Boyd, Sting, Rod Stewart, Metallica, Kate Bush, Belinda Carlisle, the Chieftains, the Cranberries, Roger Daltrey, Eurythmics, John Mellencamp, Jim Croce, and many others. ~ Mark Allan, All Music Guide
 
I haven't heard that first New York Rock album forever, so I can't say just how prog it was (or not).   Whatever, that approach did not pay off for them, as Roll Over is just straight-ahead rock & roll. 
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Points: 12818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2008 at 11:08
Originally posted by jammun jammun wrote:

Let's not forget The New York Rock & Roll Ensemble, which at least had prog aspirations.  I think their first album dates from 1968.  One of the members was Michael Kamen, whose name you might recognize.
 
Another band from 1969, Ford Theatre, also had some prog leanings, though perhaps more Doors influenced.
 
From www.answers (and enough for me not to order a copy of their first album on Amazon.UK. Does this smack of Ekseption but not mainstream prog rockers? I can think of modern 4 or 5 string quartets who do this sort of thing but probably wouldn't get into PA):
 
An apocryphal tale says Juilliard Music Conservatory-trained musicians Michael Kamen, Marty Fulterman, and Dorian Rudnytsky decided in the late '60s in New York that they could make bigger bucks as rock stars than as classical musicians. The results of this legendary experiment were inconclusive. Forming the New York Rock and Roll Ensemble, they broke with tradition on their first two albums -- 1968's self-titled debut and Faithful Friends the next year -- by using classical music instruments in rock songs and using rock instruments on classical pieces. This fusion, daring at the time, impressed legendary conductor Leonard Bernstein so much that he invited the group to appear at one of his Young People's Concerts with the New York Philharmonic Orchestra. For their third Atco release, Reflections, they collaborated with Greek composer Manos Hadjidakis, best known for scoring music for the movie Never on Sunday. Rhythm guitarist Brian Corrigan departed after the third album, and pedal steel guitar player Hank Devito joined. The band then shortened its name to New York Rock Ensemble and switched to Columbia. Released in 1971, Roll Over was their most overtly rock album to date and their biggest seller, although they fell well short of Led Zeppelin on the Billboard charts. The band dispersed after Freedomburger, although Rudnytsky, Fulterman, and Corrigan had one final shot with Flattering Foe.... Devito surfaced years later as a stalwart player in the bands of Rodney Crowell and Rosanne Cash. Only Kamen fulfilled the original trio's objective of successfully melding classical and pop music to make big bucks. After being music director for David Bowie's Diamond Dogs tour, he went on to a thriving career scoring films. After his score for Brazil gained him wide exposure, he hit the mother lode composing music for the Die Hard and Lethal Weapon series. In 1991, Kamen earned an Academy Award nomination for "(Everything I Do) I Do it for You," the Bryan Adams monster international pop smash hit from Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. Kamen has also worked with Eric Clapton, Pink Floyd, Liona Boyd, Sting, Rod Stewart, Metallica, Kate Bush, Belinda Carlisle, the Chieftains, the Cranberries, Roger Daltrey, Eurythmics, John Mellencamp, Jim Croce, and many others. ~ Mark Allan, All Music Guide
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Points: 3449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2008 at 17:31
Let's not forget The New York Rock & Roll Ensemble, which at least had prog aspirations.  I think their first album dates from 1968.  One of the members was Michael Kamen, whose name you might recognize.
 
Another band from 1969, Ford Theatre, also had some prog leanings, though perhaps more Doors influenced.
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Points: 12818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2008 at 05:31
Sorry , wrt more additions/thoughts to my original reply, something seems to have  gone loopy with the lay-out above - although it doesn't look too bad.
 
I think  without Alesha & Others, 75  is an incomplete masterpiece. I'm sure the seguing the tunes seemlessly must have taken some post-recording studio time back 1968. That's how its been played on my radio show and sits in my I-Pod.
 
I really like the vocals - the artwork for the cover and poster of the original vinyl release, gives the band a somewhat hermaphroditic look - those vocals too when you have to think: "is this a man or woman doing this", adding a little to the exotic/bizarreness of Touch .
 


Edited by Dick Heath - April 18 2008 at 11:46
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Points: 5 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2008 at 16:35
Thank you Dick for posting.
 
It has taken me a while to figure out that several of the
few existing websites out there who mention Touch
actually lead directly back to your original piece.
 
I certainly appreciate your perspective and your input.
 
Forgive me for not giving you proper credit for your excellent
work.
 
 
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Originally posted by Dick Heath

Originally posted by salmacis

Calling Dick Heath...Wink I believe Dick bought this one when it was released so he'll have even more perspective on it.
 
I can hear a Vanilla Fudge influence on this one, myself, particularly in those falsetto/vibrato vocal extremes and that Hammond organ work. I don't own it any more sadly, but if you check out Vanilla Fudge's 3rd album 'Renaissance' I think there's just as much a case to be made for that album IMHO. The only blip on it from a consistency point of view is a cover of 'Season Of The Witch', that I'm sure was actually an outtake from the first album. It's the first album that's more famous for the cover versions, and Deep Purple did similar things in that direction too, of course.
 
I have always found 'The Spiritual Death Of Howard Greer' rather hard to get into from a compositional level and the vocals are a bit hard to take for me on that track, but that final 'Seventy Five' track is still brilliant to this day. 
 
Hello!!!
 
I have been watching this thread, but feel I have written about all I could say wrt (IMHO) the relevance of Touch in annuls of American prog (and certainly British prog). As a point of information, I wrote the heartfelt biograpghy of Touch for PA and I do believe I picked my words with care. I had some practice, because this biog was adapted from an essay I originally wrote for the Ghostland's website nearly 9 years ago:
http://ghostland.com/ghostland/editorials.asp?ID=1. When Mojo magazine, in their then Buried Treasures section  did to retrospective on the Touch album, then there was some (later privately acknowledged) "borrowing" from my piece.  If I was to add to PA's Touch biog, (btw, Sal I would agree with you wrt) I would mention the progression from Vanilla Fudge (now I've been listening to more than one of their albums)....but don't forget Jeff Beck is also in print stating VF's rhythm section (Appice and Bogert) was the influence for the heaviness of his first solo Truth, (then more clearly  Cosa Nostra Beckola), which in turn lead to the heaviness of Led Zep.  I would also add Don Galucci produced the acclaimed second Stooges album - according to the Stooges' biog: brought in to give an album that sounded more like their stage set. Don Gallucci was at the forefront of American garage, prog and American punk....
 
To correct: I didn't buy,  I borrowed an American import copy of Touch (different cover structure  from the UK Deram release and I don't think it had the poster - I still have a copy of the UK poster), around April/June 1969, from a colleague who would literally tank himself up on a bottle of morphine-based cough medicine around 4pm on Friday afternoons, change his lab clothes in his weekend hippy clothes, train up to London and spend his weekends at Tiles or Middle Earth, where the Touch album was played by the house jock - hence my comment that members of British bands would hear Touch afterhours, e.g. Genesis, Yes......  I bought the UK issued album about a year later when I could afford and there was the belated UK release. Somewhere I have written that there was some reciprocal agreement across the Atlantic of the sort, UK:  "We'll release Touch, if you do Pentangle in the USA" , (a memory that doesn't really hold up since Pentangle recorded for Transatlantic not Decca???).
 
Being an odd combination of conservative butwith more than a passing interest in music literally progressing, I do find arguments about Frank Zappa (or others) being the first American progressive band hard to take. In the historical context,  back in 1969 to at least the mid 70's, Frank Zappa was heard as avante rock and/or the antithesis to the hippy rock of SF's Airplane or LA's Doors, and did not sound remotely like  Yes, GG, KC, Genesis, i.e. the main stream UK proggers. Indeed the term 'underground music/rock' best suited/suits Zappa's music wrt the political use of the term 'underground'. Encompassing Zappa 's music as prog is something PA (with its ever increasing ambiguity), has done in the last 8 years. United States Of America ??? Somewhere along the line then, they got caught up psychedelic obscurities (still do!!), such as Ultimate Spinach, but because there is a degree of sophistication to composition, instrumental arrangement  people can't let go with "clever psychedelia" ,(do I feel somebody tempted to bring hippy favourite Moondog into the debate????). I've read the essay on USA in the very academic treatise on prog,  Kevin Holm-Hudson's Progressive Rock Reconsidered, arguing they were the first US prog band... but  'avante rock'  with a significant lump of psychedia could be argued closer to the truth, being again nothing like the early mainstream British prog rockers. And BTW if you have heard the follow up to United States Of America, Joe Byrd's The American Metaphysical Circus  - only released  in CD format in the last 18 months - these claims weaken. I can hear/see the parallels with some of the Scandavanian music that gets bundled into RIO, but at the same time could be taken as the extreme opposite end of the spectrum from the likes of Karl Jenkins' cross-over classics (i.e the spectrum for a hybrid of light and serious musics  tending towards the avant end of musical development, with the scale being avant garde-ness)
 
I've listen out for American rock that is closer to mainstream British prog for a very long: Touch have an album which is almost complete (although the other 1969 albums,  ICOTCK and Renaissance's  eponymous first, are closer to being 100% prog). You do hear odd examples,  often  a single track on an album, e.g. (American) Gypsy from their 1970 or 1971 eponymous album, with Dead & Gone  (and I'm sure the main riff was borrowed from a George Harrison song recorded by the Beatles),  Grand Funk Railroad 's Closer To Home/Captain Of Your Ship, and then it wasn't until Todd Rundgren moved away from his run of solo albums (containing well crafted and played, 3 to 5 minute long tunes), with Utopia, do you get IMHO the next complete(?)  American progressive rock album. The 1970 or '71 release 12 Dreams Of Doctor Sardonicus was the last shout but  near masterpiece of 60's psychedelia, with Spirit then falling apart to the harder edge rock of Randy California's solo career and the AOR of J.J.Gunne. Kansas are quoted in the Renaissance Records issue of Touch, as to the earlier band's influence.
 
When I visited the USA for the first time February 1977 for a 3 months stay, Carry On Wayward Son was to be heard on most FM radio stations as a single hit. I bought the album Point of Know Return  somewhere in Lancaster PA on the back of that hit - and I was not disappointed with the whole. The band had been able to squeeze prog-structured songs in 3 to 5 minute play times - so different from the flabbyness I heard/still hear in Top Oc - that album was this Brit's first exposure to Kansas. In the  following year Melody Maker ran a central spread on new, innovative American bands - and you'll note punk journalism hadn't quite kicked out the jams of that revered weekly - with the emphasis on American prog. Whilst MM had a sidewise swipe at the American rock scene being 5 years behind the Brit's (sic), they listed Kansas, Meatloaf, Mahogany Rush and at least 4 other bands long forgotten by your's truly. Rundgren was not listed and by that time nobody could remember Touch. And not so long after the first of the neo-prog bands, Starcastle arrived
 
Apologies for repeating myself and not using 'IMHO' nearly enough.......


Edited by Dick Heath - April 18 2008 at 05:22
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Points: 438 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2008 at 19:00
The first American prog band? Frank Zappa and the Mothers, maybe?

I just looked at the profile of Touch and listened to their samples and read some sources about them, and you could make a good case for them being the first prog band in the USA, but I still the Frank and the Mothers were the first US prog band, Freak Out! came about in '66, and Frank Zappa was already doing avant-garde, musique concrete film scores starting in the early sixties (I think I heard that he actually composed one piece using a bicycle as an instrument, which proves how awesome he is)...

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Calling Dick Heath...Wink I believe Dick bought this one when it was released so he'll have even more perspective on it.
 
I can hear a Vanilla Fudge influence on this one, myself, particularly in those falsetto/vibrato vocal extremes and that Hammond organ work. I don't own it any more sadly, but if you check out Vanilla Fudge's 3rd album 'Renaissance' I think there's just as much a case to be made for that album IMHO. The only blip on it from a consistency point of view is a cover of 'Season Of The Witch', that I'm sure was actually an outtake from the first album. It's the first album that's more famous for the cover versions, and Deep Purple did similar things in that direction too, of course.
 
I have always found 'The Spiritual Death Of Howard Greer' rather hard to get into from a compositional level and the vocals are a bit hard to take for me on that track, but that final 'Seventy Five' track is still brilliant to this day. 
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2008 at 02:38
^Well the point of this thread is "Who came first?"... Tongue
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Points: 408 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2008 at 01:34
I have "It's a Beautiful Day" (s/t) and "Touch" (s/t) and "United States of America" (s/t);  I've never cared who came first, just how good it is. That singer for Touch is a definite liability, or else I'd rate it up there with the other two... What the heck, I'll mention the first Fever Tree album in there, too; the first track throws Bach and Ravel into the mix, but technically it's not prog. Spirit? Great band, same conclusion. Who cares what it is, or who did it first, as long as I like it.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2008 at 03:15
Originally posted by laplace laplace wrote:

Has anyone ever considered Fifty Foot Hose as being another band who slot in with the late sixties american originators? I gravitated to their album "Cauldron" ('67) over rumours of it being a sort of industrial starting-point but it's acidy psychedelic rock spattered with windy analog sound effects. just curious, because I'm a terrible judge of genre division

edit: The Touch bio we have is really really good.
 
 
Definitely.
 
Fifty Foot Hose were electronic music pioneers - ahead of the more famous Silver Apples, and the (unjustifiably) more renowned United States of America. Deep Purple knew how good they were, when they borroed the riff from "Red the Sign Post" to create the song "Space Truckin'".
 
Talking of bands Deep Purple borrowed from, I finally acquired a copy of the self-titled debut by It's a Beautiful Day (Purple borrowed the riff from "Bombay Calling" for "Child in Time".). It's a FANTASTIC album - it really doesn't get any more Proto-Prog - and it was released in 1969.
 
Anyone else familiar with this album?
 
 
I reckon It's a Beautiful Day are a more likely contender for "First American prog band". Wink
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Points: 5109 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2008 at 14:56
There could also be a case made for SRC. http://www.humvee.net/src/
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Points: 13244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2008 at 14:53
Regarding the title of the thread discussion: We can change it if that is of any help. I think a band that provokes this kind of positive reactions when mentioned deserves to attract more discussion.

I already added the band name to the thread title to help it a bit more.
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Points: 2146 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2008 at 09:02
If you had asked if Touch were the first American proto prog band I (and many others) would have disagreed.
 
When I first listened to their debut album my immediate reaction was that this was probably when prog progressed beyond proto prog. A true turning point in the development of prog.
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Points: 2614 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2008 at 01:30
What about Copland? I mean ELP covered Rodeo.
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Points: 3596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2008 at 23:06
Some here at PA would paraphrase their favourite comment re : Neo-prog by saying "American Prog, isn't that an oxymoron" . Myself, I see Kansas as being unjustly dismissed due to their commercial success, along with their unwillingness to compose 30 minute epic suites. 'Cause listening to the first 5-6 albums , subjectively speaking of course, should be enough to clearly show that this was not just a "Rawk" band. True, the scene did not bestow a  great number of top tier Prog Gods, such as the U.K., Italy, and some other Europeen countries did, but more than a few bands had a prog aspect that was overlooked due to radio "hit" status (Can you say Styx?) .

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Points: 5 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2008 at 21:15
Thanks Logan.
 
Points well made (and well taken).
I suppose the title could be considered a bit provocative.
And the word "sullied" made me chuckle. Good one!
Your reply is much appreciated.
 
Thanks again, and thanks to the entire forum and to PA.
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Points: 36865 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2008 at 20:55
Originally posted by palindrome808 palindrome808 wrote:

I am merely trying to generate awareness and acknowledgement of a truly unique and innovative band that IMO deserves much more recognition than it has received, without taking anything away from anyone else. I would assume that a forum which has the words "Progressive" and "Music" in its name might be a good place to find individuals who may be receptive to such an idea. That's all.
And I would reiterate that... "TOUCH may have possibly been the first American progressive rock band..." were PA's words, not mine.
 


Despite what you said in your initial post which i read, and said I like Touch, the topic title is likely to lead into such territory.  I don't seen how that will tarnish the thread, if anything it will provoke more discussion.  I can understand if you don't wish to divert attention from Touch and your myspace page..

Here is a link to the album, not it's well-appreciated (a high average, and 19 ratings I don't consider low recognition.  Heck, I've included touch in polls.

1968
Touch
4.26
(19 ratings)

Perhaps these threads could facilitate the reaction you seek too (and no one has sullied those yet):

Get The Word Out
Topic

Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Topic
Touch appreciation on MySpace
By Angelo, April 02 2008 at 14:58
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Points: 65523 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2008 at 20:38
Touch have gotten the amount of attention they deserve in the Prog world, and that attention continues to rightfully grow, some like the music and some don't.. for instance, I tend to really dig the bonus stuff and the scores they did for film and TV as much as the album itself, but that's just me    ..BTW, I would say they were America's first keyboard-based prog band of note (but spent much of their time in England I think)








Edited by Atavachron - April 12 2008 at 20:44
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