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Nightfly 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 01 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3659
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 Topic: How does PA rank albums?
Posted: March 14 2008 at 06:25 |
 micky wrote:
seeing how promotions to Prog Reviewer and Colabs is NOT a popularity contest.. but based on ...ahhhh.. your damn skills as a reviewer and your knowledge of prog. Silly me... reason enough they should... and DO... count more. If I had my way though... and have proposed it to empty auditoriums in the collab area  .. is eliminating ratings altogether. It is what is written that matters... not an arbitrary rating.. usually given with NO other thought given than to whether someone liked the album or not... and who really gives a sh*t about that. We want to know about the albums.. not whether some guy who none of us knows, likes it or not.
bah.....
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I know what you mean and I agree to a point but I wouldn't go as far as doing away with ratings altogether; they're quite useful for an at a glance view of the more popular albums by an artist but what I think would be a good idea is to do away with ratings without a review, after all how easy is it just to pick a number on a dozen albums with relatively litlle thought about the content. Sometimes I'll start a review with a rating in mind and by the time I've finished,after much listening and thought I've awarded it a star more or less than originally intended.
Something that I think is worth changing is when a review is acompanied by This is the first review of this album caption at the top of the review. That's quite useful to know but it only appears if the album hasn't been rated at all. I've reviewed a number of albums myself that actually are the first review but because they have been previously rated only this doesn't come up. This is not about basking in the glory of being the first reviewer but it's basically misleading.
I think Prog Reviewers and Collaborators should carry more clout with their reviews but perhaps not quite as much as they do at present. Perhaps if I'm ever promoted to Prog Reviewer I'll change my mind 
Edited by Nightfly - March 14 2008 at 06:29
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: March 14 2008 at 03:36 |
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@ Keiser Wilhelm: this may surprise you, but I often read non-collab reviews, especially before I start reviewing an album, in order to get as complete a view as I can of people's opinions. Personally, I have never been in favour of the current layout of reviews, but my opinion was probably not enough to change anything.
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keiser willhelm
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1697
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Posted: March 14 2008 at 02:36 |
my only issue with the reviews is that mine, me being a being non collab non-reviewer, have little chance of actully being read. i like my reviews. i like what i wrote. i want others to like it or at least hear my opinion. thats why i posted it. I wish that, instead of the current viewing system (collabs and reviewers listed on the left in full, the rest to the side, minimized) that there was some sort of random draw to display a random review or two about the album. That at least would make me feel a little bit better about spending the time to write a review. maybe someone will get something out of it. im trying to focus on some unheard of's so my opinion can start to matter!  apart from that little issue, i think the wieghts are fine.
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: March 13 2008 at 22:32 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Seeing how this discussion is going, I invite people who like ratings only and/or short reviews to submit those on my website, and post the lengthy reviews here.  |
I might just go and add some more ratings, if only I could access the acount once more 
forgot my name and password. It's a pretty nice site btw.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21206
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Posted: March 13 2008 at 03:05 |
Seeing how this discussion is going, I invite people who like ratings only and/or short reviews to submit those on my website, and post the lengthy reviews here.
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ShW1
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2005
Location: Sambation
Status: Offline
Points: 284
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Posted: March 13 2008 at 02:57 |
Reading all your point of views here, I'll refair to it generally:
Obviousely if you write a review, you are willing to influence the rating. Its like voting, you want your vote to influence on the final results. With those ranks of about 10,000 for a collabs/PR, and about 0.0001 for the rest, its realy hard to influence on the final rating.
Personally, I dont pay much attention anymore on the ratings: I look for the percents that are given, and then "low" it a little bit, assuming that peaple that rate/review would frequently have a positive opinion about the album, but other opinions could exist also...
I assume that another method to solve the problems of impropriate rating/reviews could be taken, rather than the existing ones. Without the nessecity to read everyone's review, to decide if he/she is a 'decent' member or not.
On the one hand, I could say that these issues, along with reviews representation, are not that important. but on the other hand, such things in general would result in less and less enjoyment for visiting and surfing in this site.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: March 13 2008 at 01:04 |
This one has exactly 200 characters:
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This is one of my favorite albums; clearly influenced by Genesis, Yes, King Crimson and Pink Floyd. The keyboards are lush, and the guitarist is a real virtuoso.
Has to be a top 10, sadly underrated.
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In the Symphonic team we seen many like this one, if you don't believe me, ask Micky, Raff, HR, Gecko, Bob and every member who has worked with us.
What is worst, we've seen similar aberrations as bios.  We replaced the bios, but nothing can be done with the reviews.
As you must have noticed, this could be any album, the reviewer may or may not heard the album.
I believe the limit should be raised to 800 characters, it's only one big parragraph.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 13 2008 at 01:11
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kenmartree
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 14 2007
Location: oregon
Status: Offline
Points: 356
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Posted: March 13 2008 at 00:39 |
[QUOTE=Ivan_Melgar_M]Sorry Soul Dreamer, it's not 200 Words, it's 200 CHARACTERS:
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
Me and my teddy bear, we got no hair but we don't care. Me and my teddy bear we love to play and play. Cause they've taken the pain away Ok I did get to 200 and I love Peter Gabriel!
Edited by kenmartree - March 13 2008 at 00:42
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: March 13 2008 at 00:08 |
While I do think that the ratings may be slightly biased I really don't care, and while I wish it weren't so hard to notice non-collab reviews I try not to worry about it, all my reviews were born out of boredom anyhow.
The only thing that I find slightly annoying is that some collabs reviewers seem to have their positions for I don't know why, there ought to be a merit system for becoming a reviewer/collab rather than the arbitrary way that they are chosen now........ but I am content to stick to the forum
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 23:56 |
Ricochet wrote:
The "technicians" here can give the best answer, but what I know myself is that, instead of the very simple average, PA follows an algorithm by which normal reviews are counted as 1, Prog Reviewers' reviews are counted as 3 and Special Collaborators' reviews as 10 (or is it the rates without ratings that are 1, the normal reviews that are 3 and the PR/SC that are 10?). |
There are other elements Rico:
- Ratings without reviews count only 1, because the level of trust is minimum, PA doesn't know if the reviewer has even heard the album.
- Members reviews weight 2.
- The number of reviews of the album also counts, because it's a statisticall rule that the more votes you got, the smaller the statistical desviation is.
And some more I don't know.
Iván
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 23:28 |
hahhaha.... not bad.... most objecive Genesis review I've seen in a while 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 06 2006
Location: A˛ Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 5109
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 23:23 |
micky wrote:
Soul Dreamer wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sorry Soul Dreamer, it's not 200 Words, it's 200 CHARACTERS:
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
That's how 200 characters look...Do you believe it's too much to ask for a review about a whole album?
Iván
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Sorry, my mistake  , I meant 200 characters... That review would be removed as "inappropriate" quite soon thow, I think.... |
hahhaha.. are you sure about that Have you read most Genesis reviews |
Please Micky. My Genesis reviews are much more objective.
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 23:10 |
Soul Dreamer wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sorry Soul Dreamer, it's not 200 Words, it's 200 CHARACTERS:
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
That's how 200 characters look...Do you believe it's too much to ask for a review about a whole album?
Iván
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Sorry, my mistake , I meant 200 characters... That review would be removed as "inappropriate" quite soon thow, I think.... |
hahhaha.. are you sure about that Have you read most Genesis reviews
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Soul Dreamer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 17 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 997
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 23:02 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sorry Soul Dreamer, it's not 200 Words, it's 200 CHARACTERS:
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
That's how 200 characters look...Do you believe it's too much to ask for a review about a whole album?
Iván
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Sorry, my mistake , I meant 200 characters... That review would be removed as "inappropriate" quite soon thow, I think....
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To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica)
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 22:57 |
Sorry Soul Dreamer, it's not 200 Words, it's 200 CHARACTERS:
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
That's how 200 characters look...Do you believe it's too much to ask for a review about a whole album?
Iván
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Soul Dreamer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 17 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 997
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 22:41 |
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Well, not to stir up the discussion again...that was some months ago and in another forum...but I think the current algorithm is not very good, certainly less then Mike's former algorithm, and it depreciates the number of reviews (with or w/o >200 words) far to much, and gives fictional scores to albums which are not much reviewed as a side effect.....
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To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica)
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 22:35 |
Deathrabbit wrote:
Yea collabs are weighted so much it discourages others from writing reviews. I don't even bother most of the time because I know my opinion wont be counted for crap. |
Why you make the review?
- To be counted?
- To place an album in N° 1?
- Or because you like to share what you feel about the album?
In my casw, I can't care less for rankings, never did and never will, if SEBTP or CTTE or Thick as a Brick are in first place...I don't give a damn.
I don't like, SEBTP as much as any Gabriel era Genesis, I don't like any Yes album as much as I like Gothic Impressions, but I know this won't change easilly because this albums are iconic and Gothic UImpressions not.
I wouldn't like Hybris more than how I already love this album if ot was in N° 1 or less if it was in N° 200.
Your review is posted in the front page in a determined moment as any reviewer or SC, and you are allowed to share your opinion as much as any Administrator in your review, if this is not enough, you have the forum, so how does this affect your review?.
Now, the algorythm is confidence issue, the Adms know the reviewers and SCs, so they trust in us, not because we are better, but because they know us, if you knew how much crap is deleted or how many attempts of manipulating the charts have been made (people writing with 5 or 6 IDs or people giving 0 to every top album and 5 stars only to one), you would also be careful.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 12 2008 at 22:38
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 22:17 |
seeing how promotions to Prog Reviewer and Colabs is NOT a popularity contest.. but based on ...ahhhh.. your damn skills as a reviewer and your knowledge of prog. Silly me... reason enough they should... and DO... count more. If I had my way though... and have proposed it to empty auditoriums in the collab area .. is eliminating ratings altogether. It is what is written that matters... not an arbitrary rating.. usually given with NO other thought given than to whether someone liked the album or not... and who really gives a sh*t about that. We want to know about the albums.. not whether some guy who none of us knows, likes it or not. bah.....
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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NotAProghead
Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7865
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 22:11 |
tuxon wrote:
...collaborators ratings weigh a little more also, which may seem a bit unfair, but that's because life isn't fair. |
Maybe the rool, invented by some persons, is unfair? Why life is guilty and why the rool can't be changed? It's not a USA constitution.
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 20:42 |
Deathrabbit wrote:
Yea collabs are weighted so much it discourages others from writing reviews. I don't even bother most of the time because I know my opinion wont be counted for crap.
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if you are worried about all that crap... and not what you actually have to SAY about the album.. your review would have been worthless anyway don't you think......
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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How does PA rank albums?
