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    Posted: January 09 2008 at 18:37
While "Good Vibrations" itself isn't prog, had "Smile" gone according to plan, it would have been as proggy as Sgt Pepper in a uniquely American way (early prog seems to skew British).
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Points: 157 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2008 at 18:36
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by khammer99 khammer99 wrote:

  Based on various criteria thrown about here, and with some trepidation, and only slightly having my tongue in cheek, could the Beach Boys song Good Vibrations (from Pet Sounds), released in 1966 maybe be considered Proto Prog in some circles?
 
Not really - at it's heart, it's a surf/pop song.


 Oh, I agree that it's a surf/pop song. Just something that that Dick Heath had mentioned, about keeping the times in mind got me to thinking about it.
 
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

I get where you're coming from - but the theremin is just used as another "voice", in a band famous for multi-voice songs. Graham Bond's Organisation used the Mellotron a year earlier - the first recorded group to do so - and plenty of Rock bands had begun to use the Hammond B3(?) around or even before 1965.
 
The most interesting use of Theremins - or rather, home-made Theremin-like kit was by a rather obscure band called Fifty Foot Hose, whose 1967 album "Cauldron" makes them worthy of inclusion in the Proto-Prog section - I'll get onto it Wink
 
 
Originally posted by khammer99 khammer99 wrote:

 Sometimes, as mentioned by Dick, we need to keep the times in mind when considering a particular songs or artist for their "progness".
 
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Yes, but we also have to be a bit sensible about it - otherwise we might start considering Elvis a bit Proggy - after all, several of his songs were based on Classical music - and, of course, Frank Sinatra released the first concept album. Wink
 


 True. Things could get carried away a bit. And based on one album, even if it was considered "prog", I agree that it still wouldn't deserve consideration for inclusion.

Originally posted by khammer99 khammer99 wrote:

 This was also the time when Brian Wilson wanted to expand the bands sound, and delve into other directions, but various documented reasons, he was not "allowed" too. This album was obviously a departure from their normal stuff.
  Certainly, using a theromen in a song, has to be considered progressive.
 
Most of Pet Sounds is made using household items - hence the title. I'm not sure how many houses have a Theremin, but I digress... Just using the instrument isn't really enough - the sound is striking, I agree, but there's more to progressive rock than just the sound. Compare "Good Vibrations" to "Tomorrow Never Knows" - which is the Proggier and why? Then there's "8 Miles High" by the Byrds to consider - it doesn't feature any unusual instrumentation, yet is very progressive. Arguably the first psychedelic pop song, but not the first psychedelia, which, as a genre, is almost progressive by definition - as far as I can tell, Alan Watts released the first psychedelia in 1962 with the frankly gobsmacking album "This Is It".
 
Then I can't help thinking of some of the Who's output in 1965 - e.g. "A Quick One While He's Away", Dylan's masterful "Highway 61 Revisited", Great Society - really, in comparison, "Good Vibrations" is put firmly in its place - an interesting exploration into "new" sounds (the Theremin has been around since 1923, IIRC, and its cousin, the Ondes Martenot, was used by the French composer Olivier Messiaen)...
 
erm... just going off on one really - there was so much great and progressive rock music around from about 1965 onwards... Embarrassed


Thanks for the interesting argument....
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2008 at 17:10
Originally posted by khammer99 khammer99 wrote:

  Based on various criteria thrown about here, and with some trepidation, and only slightly having my tongue in cheek, could the Beach Boys song Good Vibrations (from Pet Sounds), released in 1966 maybe be considered Proto Prog in some circles?
 
Not really - at it's heart, it's a surf/pop song.
 
I get where you're coming from - but the theremin is just used as another "voice", in a band famous for multi-voice songs. Graham Bond's Organisation used the Mellotron a year earlier - the first recorded group to do so - and plenty of Rock bands had begun to use the Hammond B3(?) around or even before 1965.
 
The most interesting use of Theremins - or rather, home-made Theremin-like kit was by a rather obscure band called Fifty Foot Hose, whose 1967 album "Cauldron" makes them worthy of inclusion in the Proto-Prog section - I'll get onto it Wink
 
 
Originally posted by khammer99 khammer99 wrote:

 Sometimes, as mentioned by Dick, we need to keep the times in mind when considering a particular songs or artist for their "progness".
 
Yes, but we also have to be a bit sensible about it - otherwise we might start considering Elvis a bit Proggy - after all, several of his songs were based on Classical music - and, of course, Frank Sinatra released the first concept album. Wink
 

Originally posted by khammer99 khammer99 wrote:

 This was also the time when Brian Wilson wanted to expand the bands sound, and delve into other directions, but various documented reasons, he was not "allowed" too. This album was obviously a departure from their normal stuff.
  Certainly, using a theromen in a song, has to be considered progressive.
 
Most of Pet Sounds is made using household items - hence the title. I'm not sure how many houses have a Theremin, but I digress... Just using the instrument isn't really enough - the sound is striking, I agree, but there's more to progressive rock than just the sound. Compare "Good Vibrations" to "Tomorrow Never Knows" - which is the Proggier and why? Then there's "8 Miles High" by the Byrds to consider - it doesn't feature any unusual instrumentation, yet is very progressive. Arguably the first psychedelic pop song, but not the first psychedelia, which, as a genre, is almost progressive by definition - as far as I can tell, Alan Watts released the first psychedelia in 1962 with the frankly gobsmacking album "This Is It".
 
Then I can't help thinking of some of the Who's output in 1965 - e.g. "A Quick One While He's Away", Dylan's masterful "Highway 61 Revisited", Great Society - really, in comparison, "Good Vibrations" is put firmly in its place - an interesting exploration into "new" sounds (the Theremin has been around since 1923, IIRC, and its cousin, the Ondes Martenot, was used by the French composer Olivier Messiaen)...
 
erm... just going off on one really - there was so much great and progressive rock music around from about 1965 onwards... Embarrassed


Edited by Certif1ed - January 09 2008 at 17:11
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Points: 157 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2008 at 15:26
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

 
What I feel un-proggie about Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys, was the belated take-up of stereophonic recording.


 Then based on that observation, the Beatles are a lock as prog, because they were one of the first bands to record in 8 track. Smile  I'm just playing Dick, no offense meant. Smile
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Points: 12812 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2008 at 07:39
Originally posted by khammer99 khammer99 wrote:

  Based on various criteria thrown about here, and with some trepidation, and only slightly having my tongue in cheek, could the Beach Boys song Good Vibrations (from Pet Sounds), released in 1966 maybe be considered Proto Prog in some circles? For the most part they were a West Coast Surf Band, and looking at the band with todays eyes, or more appropriately ears, they can hardly be considered "prog", but at the time of it's release, it certainly was something new and not heard of before. Sometimes, as mentioned by Dick, we need to keep the times in mind when considering a particular songs or artist for their "progness".
  This was also the time when Brian Wilson wanted to expand the bands sound, and delve into other directions, but various documented reasons, he was not "allowed" too. This album was obviously a departure from their normal stuff.
  Certainly, using a theromen in a song, has to be considered progressive.
 
What I feel un-proggie about Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys, was the belated take-up of stereophonic recording.
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Points: 157 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2008 at 23:26
  Based on various criteria thrown about here, and with some trepidation, and only slightly having my tongue in cheek, could the Beach Boys song Good Vibrations (from Pet Sounds), released in 1966 maybe be considered Proto Prog in some circles? For the most part they were a West Coast Surf Band, and looking at the band with todays eyes, or more appropriately ears, they can hardly be considered "prog", but at the time of it's release, it certainly was something new and not heard of before. Sometimes, as mentioned by Dick, we need to keep the times in mind when considering a particular songs or artist for their "progness".
  This was also the time when Brian Wilson wanted to expand the bands sound, and delve into other directions, but various documented reasons, he was not "allowed" too. This album was obviously a departure from their normal stuff.
  Certainly, using a theromen in a song, has to be considered progressive.
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been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.

- Terry Pratchett
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Points: 5851 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2008 at 04:24
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Mandrakeroot wrote:
Quote In my opinion the Proto prog of The Nice or Procol Harum or Ekseption or Nirvana (for pure examples) hasn't nothing to that to see with Psychedelic Rock.
 
In first place The Nice is a Symphonic band, has almost exactly the sound of ELP with Psychedelic elements.
 
But back to the point, Proto Prog is ESSENTIALLY the link between Psyche and Prog, so the cases of Proto bands without Psyche elements can be counted with the fingers of one hand.
 
I know you're entitled to your opoinion, but the link between Psyche and Proto Prog is a fact, not a matter of opinion.
 
For me the cited type of Proto Prog is the true Pre Prog and it would have to be dealt like a true Prog genre in PA.
 
I agree with that but for different reasons, Proto Prog is lets say 50% Prog and 50% Psyche, but it already has most of the elements required to be Prog, despite this FACT, the Psychedelic elements of the Proto Prog bands are undeniable.
 
Iván
 
 
 
If we dig in my mind it would be difficult remove me the conviction that the Procol Harum are 100% Prog...

...But it is very difficult to judge many bands of the period 1967/ 1970 in Prog terms because they were still anchored at previous patterns typical of the Rock. In any case, if we take one hundred people and ask an opinion on Proto Prog would at least 60/ 70 different opinions, even though at the end, with the same result.
 
If we speak of The Nice agree with you, they are 100% Psychedelic Symphonic. But how should we judge the first two albums of Yes or all pre "666" production of Aphrodite's Child? Or, again, the production of Deep Purple in the first 4 albums? And for The beatles post "Sgt. Pepper? And the same question applies for The Moody Blues, Andromeda (Uk) and for all Proto Symphonic Prog bands.
 
Since putting all these bands in a single family can be just as is true that I believe this creates confusion because if listening to a band as Aphrodite's Child or The Moody Blues then listen Genesis, Yes and the other bands who make similar Prog (including non symphonic). But if I listening The Beatles or Nirvana this is not automatic. Then Andromeda (Uk) call directly king Crimson, Atomic Rooster and modern Prog Metal...
 
So, in the end, I find that it is not possible to classify one Proto Prog, but many Proto Prog. What varies end of a period depending on the individual nation.
 
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Points: 47 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2008 at 20:40
An argument for the first prog album would rage for ages......ITCOTCK whilst being a brilliant album is not the first prog album, the nice, moody blues etc would qualify first.
 
Prog between 1967-70 was more raw and exciitng. i only wish i was old nough to notice.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2008 at 14:41
Mandrakeroot wrote:
Quote In my opinion the Proto prog of The Nice or Procol Harum or Ekseption or Nirvana (for pure examples) hasn't nothing to that to see with Psychedelic Rock.
 
In first place The Nice is a Symphonic band, has almost exactly the sound of ELP with Psychedelic elements.
 
But back to the point, Proto Prog is ESSENTIALLY the link between Psyche and Prog, so the cases of Proto bands without Psyche elements can be counted with the fingers of one hand.
 
I know you're entitled to your opoinion, but the link between Psyche and Proto Prog is a fact, not a matter of opinion.
 
For me the cited type of Proto Prog is the true Pre Prog and it would have to be dealt like a true Prog genre in PA.
 
I agree with that but for different reasons, Proto Prog is lets say 50% Prog and 50% Psyche, but it already has most of the elements required to be Prog, despite this FACT, the Psychedelic elements of the Proto Prog bands are undeniable.
 
Iván
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 01 2008 at 14:46
            
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Points: 5851 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2008 at 12:53
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Originally posted by Mandrakeroot Mandrakeroot wrote:

In my opinion the Proto prog of The Nice or Procol Harum or Ekseption or Nirvana (for pure examples) hasn't nothing to that to see with Psychedelic Rock.
 
For me the cited type of Proto Prog is the true Pre Prog and it would have to be dealt like a true Prog genre in PA.


Are you saying "The Nice or Procol Harum or Nirvana" have nothing to do with psychedelic rock? If that is the case I have to completely disagree with you - it helps to have been around during the time of these bands' inceptions and early successes to clearly see the roots and know what was going around these bands.
 
Clearly, each of us has different ideas. That was mine.

In any case I believe that the Proto Prog is better treat as a true Prog genre.
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[QUOTE=Logan]
1967 2.00
Collectors/fans%20only
(1 ratings) 		XHOL CARAVAN / XHOL
Get In High		 Krautrock
(Studio Album)

Forget the first one (from when they were Soul Caravan).

This is their first real prog album. As great as Soft Machines second, imo.

5 1969 3.30
Good,%20but%20non-essential
(10 ratings) 		XHOL CARAVAN / XHOL
Electrip 		Krautrock
(Studio Album)
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Points: 12812 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 29 2007 at 10:39
Originally posted by Mandrakeroot Mandrakeroot wrote:

In my opinion the Proto prog of The Nice or Procol Harum or Ekseption or Nirvana (for pure examples) hasn't nothing to that to see with Psychedelic Rock.
 
For me the cited type of Proto Prog is the true Pre Prog and it would have to be dealt like a true Prog genre in PA.


Are you saying "The Nice or Procol Harum or Nirvana" have nothing to do with psychedelic rock? If that is the case I have to completely disagree with you - it helps to have been around during the time of these bands' inceptions and early successes to clearly see the roots and know what was going around these bands.
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Originally posted by Sole Sole wrote:

Originally posted by Mandrakeroot Mandrakeroot wrote:

Davidi Bowie's "Space Oddity" is an incredible example of Eclettic Prog. this album is a small Prog masterpiece!
 
Is DAVID BOWIE a ProgArchives artists? In my opinion yes!
 
David Bowie ... Already, a serious omission!
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Points: 264 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2007 at 13:31
Another band to consider is Group 1850. Their debut, Agemo's trip to mother earth (1968) is a classic album filled with fuzzy, psychedelic rock. Their second album, Paradise Now (1969) is even better. It is a shame this band hasn't been added to the Archives yet !!

Also recommended is the track Celestial Dreams by Dragonfly (1968). An amazing dreamy, progressive track with fantastic guitarplaying and strings to create a unique atmosphere. One of my favourite tracks from the sixties.
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Originally posted by Mandrakeroot Mandrakeroot wrote:

Davidi Bowie's "Space Oddity" is an incredible example of Eclettic Prog. this album is a small Prog masterpiece!
 
Is DAVID BOWIE a ProgArchives artists? In my opinion yes!
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Davidi Bowie's "Space Oddity" is an incredible example of Eclettic Prog. this album is a small Prog masterpiece!
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Points: 2755 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 25 2007 at 06:24
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Interesting choices there guys. It does I suppose resurrect the old debate as to whether ITCOTCK was the first prog album.
 
I really don't think that that needs to be revisited.  While I personally am of the opinion that Days of Future Passed was the first prog album, I understand that there are strong reasons for considering ITCOTCK as well
 
The really interesting thing here is the time period the original poster gave.  While I wouldn't say that everything prior to 1971 was proto prog, the genre didn't really gel until then.
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Points: 5851 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 24 2007 at 17:09
In my opinion the Proto prog of The Nice or Procol Harum or Ekseption or Nirvana (for pure examples) hasn't nothing to that to see with Psychedelic Rock.
 
For me the cited type of Proto Prog is the true Pre Prog and it would have to be dealt like a true Prog genre in PA.


Edited by Mandrakeroot - December 24 2007 at 17:10
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1967:

1967 3.99
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(19 ratings) 		CAPTAIN BEEFHEART
Safe As Milk		 RIO/Avant-Prog
(Studio Album)


1967 4.75
Essential:%20a%20masterpiece%20of%20progressive%20music
(3 ratings) 		ELMER GANTRY'S VELVET OPERA
Elmer Gantry's Velvet Opera		 Psychedelic/Space Rock
(Studio Album)



1967 4.05
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(36 ratings) 		ZAPPA, FRANK
Absolutely Free		 RIO/Avant-Prog
(Studio Album)

1967 3.92
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(259 ratings) 		PINK FLOYD
The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn		 Psychedelic/Space Rock
(Studio Album)

1967 4.00
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(6 ratings) 		NIEMEN, CZESŁAW
Dziwny Jest Ten Swiat 		Eclectic Prog
(Studio Album)

1967 3.52
Excellent%20addition%20to%20any%20prog%20music%20collection
(23 ratings) 		NICE, THE
The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack 		Symphonic Prog
(Studio Album)

1967 3.00
Good,%20but%20non-essential
(1 ratings) 		INDEXI
Nase Doba		 Heavy Prog
(Singles/EPs/Fan Club/Promo)

1967 1.00
Poor.%20Only%20for%20completionists
(2 ratings) 		SKALDOWIE
Skaldowie		 Eclectic Prog

1967 2.00
Collectors/fans%20only
(1 ratings) 		XHOL CARAVAN / XHOL
Get In High		 Krautrock
(Studio Album)

1967 0.00
Bad.%20Do%20not%20buy!
( ratings) 		AUGER, BRIAN
Open		 Jazz Rock/Fusion
(Studio Album)


Just a 1967 list of albums from bands/ artists that are included as Prog.  How many of these might be considered true Prog (at least according to the Prog umbrella we utilise now, which is rather revisionist)?



Edited by Logan - December 24 2007 at 13:22
Duos for fave acts
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Points: 545 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 24 2007 at 13:14
The album that really springs to mind is "Freak Out!", bet then of course theirs "Piper at The Gates of Dawn". Also I like Johnny and His Cellar Rockers a lot, but that's not prog.
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