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Seyo View Drop Down
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Points: 1320 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: New Definition for Prog Related
    Posted: September 04 2007 at 03:58
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Seyo Seyo wrote:

Without intention to disrespect Ivan's hard worked, I am still not clear about definitions of PP and PR.
 
These were the old ones:
 

Proto-Prog

Rock Bands in existence prior to 1969 that influenced the development of progressive rock.

Prog Related:

A wide subgenre that encompasses two kinds of bands/artist, that either consist of progressive artist that strayed away from their progressive roots into mainstream rock or were influenced by progressive rock.
 
Now you say again that inter alia prog related bands are those who influnced development of prog rock. But that was already covered by proto-prog? Or am I missing something?Confused
 
I understand it, mostly because none of the sub-genres or categories is really very clear.
 
IMO Proto Prog is mainly the link between Psyche and Prog, bands that had achieved all the requirements to be considered fully Prog, but not developed them yet, in Prog Archives Proto Prog are all bands that influenced Prog before 1969.
 
Again IMHO this is not correct, this is too wide and ambiguous, but not my call.
 
To see how the definition should be understood, you only need to check all the Proto Prog bands, you will discover that except The Who each and every Protto Prog band has Psychedellic elements. (I would add blues elements too)
 
Now Prog related is created to be confusing, because is not an homogenous sub-genre but a wide category that groups  dfferent bands with different roots and influences that probably have nothing in common except that they:
  1. Are not Prog bands but
  2. Fall in one of this three characteristics
    1. Influenced Progressive Rock bands (I guess this means after 1969?), or
    2. Were influenced by Prog bands or
    3. Have some Prog elements.

So I understand your confusion.

Iván
 
Thank you for elaborating again!
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 04 2007 at 00:40
Originally posted by Mandrakeroot Mandrakeroot wrote:



this is fundamental. Proper for this reason I think that the 60's production of Manfred mann is a great example of Proto Prog. But proper for this reason I think that Wishbone Ash and Rainbow wouldn't be badly in the Heavy Prog. 
 
Mandy, already on another thread Easy Livin has explained the new sub-genres are only for 100% Prog bands from ART ROCK.
 
Art Rock has splitted to be more easy to manage but this doesn't turn bands that have been cataliogued and approved by the Adm Team as Prog Related or Proto Prog into full Prog bands.
 
Wishbone Ash and Rainbow are heavy yes, BUT NOT PROG AT ALL, the fact that Art Rock split, doesn't change that.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 57 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 03 2007 at 22:23
Excelente
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Points: 5851 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 03 2007 at 05:03
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

Sorry for being rushed, but I am writing from a library (no Internet at home yet). Anyway, kudos to Ivan for the great new definition - though I have to say I don't think it'll stop people from whining, and for a very simple reason. There are people here who simply
REFUSE to understand that PP and PR are NOT Prog, because if they did they would be forced to stop attacking others every time a controversial new addition is made.

Sorry for being so disillusioned about it, but this is what over two years of PA have taught meCry...


this is fundamental. Proper for this reason I think that the 60's production of Manfred mann is a great example of Proto Prog. But proper for this reason I think that Wishbone Ash and Rainbow wouldn't be badly in the Heavy Prog. 
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2007 at 12:10
Sorry for being rushed, but I am writing from a library (no Internet at home yet). Anyway, kudos to Ivan for the great new definition - though I have to say I don't think it'll stop people from whining, and for a very simple reason. There are people here who simply
REFUSE to understand that PP and PR are NOT Prog, because if they did they would be forced to stop attacking others every time a controversial new addition is made.

Sorry for being so disillusioned about it, but this is what over two years of PA have taught meCry...
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2007 at 17:02
Originally posted by Seyo Seyo wrote:

Without intention to disrespect Ivan's hard worked, I am still not clear about definitions of PP and PR.
 
These were the old ones:
 

Proto-Prog

Rock Bands in existence prior to 1969 that influenced the development of progressive rock.

Prog Related:

A wide subgenre that encompasses two kinds of bands/artist, that either consist of progressive artist that strayed away from their progressive roots into mainstream rock or were influenced by progressive rock.
 
Now you say again that inter alia prog related bands are those who influnced development of prog rock. But that was already covered by proto-prog? Or am I missing something?Confused
 
I understand it, mostly because none of the sub-genres or categories is really very clear.
 
IMO Proto Prog is mainly the link between Psyche and Prog, bands that had achieved all the requirements to be considered fully Prog, but not developed them yet, in Prog Archives Proto Prog are all bands that influenced Prog before 1969.
 
Again IMHO this is not correct, this is too wide and ambiguous, but not my call.
 
To see how the definition should be understood, you only need to check all the Proto Prog bands, you will discover that except The Who each and every Protto Prog band has Psychedellic elements.
 
Now Prog related is created to be confusing, because is not an homogenous sub-genre but a wide category that groups  dfferent bands with different roots and influences that probably have nothing in common except that they:
  1. Are not Prog bands but
  2. Fall in one of this three characteristics
    1. Influenced Progressive Rock bands, or
    2. Were influenced by Prog bands or
    3. Have some Prog elements.

So I understand your confusion.

Iván
            
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Points: 1320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2007 at 16:42
Without intention to disrespect Ivan's hard worked, I am still not clear about definitions of PP and PR.
 
These were the old ones:
 

Proto-Prog

Rock Bands in existence prior to 1969 that influenced the development of progressive rock.

Prog Related:

A wide subgenre that encompasses two kinds of bands/artist, that either consist of progressive artist that strayed away from their progressive roots into mainstream rock or were influenced by progressive rock.
 
Now you say again that inter alia prog related bands are those who influnced development of prog rock. But that was already covered by proto-prog? Or am I missing something?Confused
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Points: 5851 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2007 at 19:24
Great, Ivàn!

Prog Related, in every case is Music Progressive, not Progressive Music. Change the order...  Changes all!!! 
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Points: 1049 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2007 at 04:19
Thanks for taking the time to explain things Ivan  Tongue
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Points: 4309 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 23:53
Well done, Iván, now there isn't any confusion about this topic! Clap

Edited by Barla - August 21 2007 at 23:54
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 23:44
Originally posted by Yorkie X Yorkie X wrote:

If prog related is not a Genre ... whats it doing here ?  Confused  (would prefer it if it was gone actually) 
 
A genre or more precisely a Prog SUB-GENRE groups bands with a similar sound or common root of influence, that's the case of Symphonic, Fusion or Neo Prog, in a perfect world we would have only sub-genres.
 
But this is art and art is far from structural perfection, ASIA or STYX made their music iinfluenced by Prog bands but they never were part of a defined SUB-GENRE, but they must be mentioned.
 
But as Asia we have bands in the same situation with other mainstream influences that may be AOR, POP, Disco, Rock & Roll, etc, and we need to place them somewhere.
 
So being all so different,we can't create a sub-genre wide enough to contain the elements present in all of them, the only solution is a category that groups bands with only something in common, they are somehow related to ´prog despite their different backgrounds.
 
If you don't like it, you have 20 sub-genres to investighate and nearly 12,000 albums in other sub.genres, so you can expend a lifetime not having the need to visit Prog Related once.
 
If we understand that the addition of a Prog Related band is exceptional and not a priority, there should not be problems.
 
And believe me, I am, the member who has probably disagreed with more Prog Related inclusions, but I would be blind to reality if I didn't knew we need this category becase some non 100% Prog bands were so important for the genre or are so related that have to be mentioned.
 
Cheers.
 
Iván 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 22 2007 at 00:10
            
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Points: 8844 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 23:17
Originally posted by Melomaniac Melomaniac wrote:

Now : can we talk about The Police's inclusion in prog-related ???
 
WinkBig%20smileLOL
 
They influenced quite a few prog acts in the 80's most notably Rush (Vital SIgns, Signals and Grace Under Pressure).


Except that Rush wasn't a prog act in the 80's. 

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Points: 1049 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 23:00
If prog related is not a Genre ... whats it doing here ?  Confused  (would prefer it if it was gone actually) 


Edited by Yorkie X - August 21 2007 at 23:11
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Points: 3089 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 19:29
I liked the old definition, but this is even better, because of the explained reasons. Could we somewhere keep the old definition, for the record? Like, in the "Documents" page.
Good work.
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Points: 17629 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:21
Well done, Ivan  Clap

This is a good example for improving our site - and finally a good example for a collective effort Thumbs%20Up




Edited by Rivertree - August 21 2007 at 17:22


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Points: 10652 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:17
Nice definition, I guess this is where Jimi Hendrix and David Bowie belong.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:12
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ sorry about the genre/category thing ... I misread the first sentence of your definition (I read "Prog-Related is not a separate universe in music, it’s a genre among many others" Wink)
 
Don't worry, this are visual problems proper of iour advanced age Wink
 
Thanks to you and the other members for the support.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 4088 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:10
Now : can we talk about The Police's inclusion in prog-related ???
 
WinkBig%20smileLOL
 
They influenced quite a few prog acts in the 80's most notably Rush (Vital SIgns, Signals and Grace Under Pressure).
"One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio
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Points: 6419 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:07
The new one's far better than the old one! Good work.
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:04
^ sorry about the genre/category thing ... I misread the first sentence of your definition (I read "Prog-Related is not a separate universe in music, it’s a genre among many others" Wink)
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