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Chus 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
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 Topic: Akerfeldt accused of using vocal correction sw!
Posted: April 03 2007 at 22:14 |
 OpethGuitarist wrote:
im actually suprised he was able to get through the whole thing without much of a peep
and LOL @ vocal correction software - making up facts is the way to go now right guys?
peter gabriel used vocal correction software fyi
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If I were to take Cert's reviews with this review's standard and compare it to yours I'd say you're not completely out of sin. I personally though there were much worse and biased reviews than his (which in fact, I found explicit and rich information-wise).
BTW: It's more probable to say they used pitch correction software. Peter Gabriel has been around the music industry for more than 30 years and VCS were introduced in the mid-90's by Antares (which didn't affect other aspects of the sound), so what you're saying doesn't make sense. You're accusing someone for the same sin you commit
Edited by Chus - April 03 2007 at 22:16
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Jesus Gabriel
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coleio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 272
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Posted: April 03 2007 at 17:49 |
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I'm not going to dissect and reply to your previous post cert1fied, as it would take me a while, and would probably just fall into opinion against opinion again.
I see your point, even as much as I do love Opeth and I shall let my resistance die here.
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Eat heartily at breakfast, for tonight, we dine in Hell!!
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21206
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Posted: April 03 2007 at 07:15 |
^ I agree, it's a very good review. 
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: April 03 2007 at 07:10 |
I think it is a very fair review. As a piece of review writing it sets very challenging standards, that few could aspire too. The style isnt everyone's cup of tea though but if our reviews all followed the same patterns and expectations they would very quickly become redundant after the first review of an album was psoted.
To me, this review cements Mr Certifed's position as one of the TOP 5 reviewers on the site, maybe the Number One. Probably one of the most meticulous reviewers of Prog Rock music anywhere.
Reviews are opinions. Pure and simple.
Edited by Tony R - April 03 2007 at 07:11
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
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Points: 7559
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Posted: April 03 2007 at 06:52 |
coleio wrote:
If you're familiar with other 'growling' style vocals, you would realise that Akerfeldt's vocals are actually quite intelligible compared to a lot of other vocalists who use that style.
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Intelligiblity isn't the issue - growling doesn't have to be particularly intelligible.
At the points I mentioned, I used the phrase "comic-book", because it made me want to laugh - but also cringe a little, as I found it rather cheesey, and when I looked up the lyrics, completely inappropriate.
It's the tone that seems to be wrong - note I said that he later uses it in a way that I would consider more appropriate.
coleio wrote:
And no they probably are'nt like Fish or Hammill, yet as prog is all about originality and progressing, churning out the same lyrics and using the same lyrical themes and techniques like others would be a contradiction surely? |
Indeed - but I meant that they're obviously not as good in terms of lyric writing technique, or depth - they're all surface and require no imagination or intellectual activity to understand.
Hardly progressive.
coleio wrote:
I myself find them quite poetic and effective at creating mental imagery, but then again that's just me and as opinion is subjective I won't say anymore on the matter.
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You're welcome to your opinions, but I don't find them particulary poetic - apart from the fact that they rhyme in regular places. They're too obvious and "in your face" - like pop lyrics.
coleio wrote:
I just feel that the comparison between differing styles of prog to be quite illogical, that's all.
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I just compare prog music to other prog music - that's all. The logic appears to be sound - what's illogical about it?
If one group is demonstrably better or more progressive in some ways than another, then it's a worthwhile excercise for anyone keen on exploring truly progressive music to keep things relative.
The logic is in the yardsticks used to measure that progressiveness.
It is those you should examine, not the end result - which will always be opinion.
Anyway, while I feel flattered at the attention that my reviews are getting (any publicity is GOOD publicity), this thread is NOT about discussing my reviews in any depth - just one particular comment.
There was another thread in which my reviews were discussed, and that discussion has now been ended by the site Admins.
Feel free to start another, if you want to continue this topic, however.
In the meantime, back to vocal correction software and its use - did Akerfeldt use it? Does anyone actually care that much? What are its merits or disadvantages?
Edited by Certif1ed - April 03 2007 at 07:01
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Posted: April 03 2007 at 05:45 |
IMHO Akerfeldt's growls are among the best ... i've heard far, far worse growls. Still, nothing compares to Nile (circa Darkened Shrines).
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coleio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 272
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Posted: April 03 2007 at 05:34 |
Certif1ed wrote:
coleio wrote:
As a massive and long time fan of Opeth, I found the review quite amusing.
The constant critque of his voice as 'comic book'....
The suggestion that they need better lyrics 
Did the reviewer listen to the album? If you're going to get someone to review Opeth, get someone who knows what progressive metal is.
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Yes, I listened to the album.
I'm familiar with "growling", and, compared to other growling I've heard, it is comic book sounding. Maybe that's not a technical term - but growling is not a documented technique, so forgive me for making up my own language to describe it.
The lyrics are not exactly Gabriel, Hammill or Fish standard by any stretch of the imagination - and, on the whole, seem shallow to me compared to those luminaries.
I'm afraid you're right, I don't know what Progressive metal is yet - but I am discovering as I listen to more and more of it.
Note: No-one "gets" me to review albums - I do so because I enjoy it and was invited by the site's owners to do so. |
If you're familiar with other 'growling' style vocals, you would realise that Akerfeldt's vocals are actually quite intelligible compared to a lot of other vocalists who use that style. And no they probably are'nt like Fish or Hammill, yet as prog is all about originality and progressing, churning out the same lyrics and using the same lyrical themes and techniques like others would be a contradiction surely? I myself find them quite poetic and effective at creating mental imagery, but then again that's just me and as opinion is subjective I won't say anymore on the matter. I just feel that the comparison between differing styles of prog to be quite illogical, that's all.
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Eat heartily at breakfast, for tonight, we dine in Hell!!
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Posted: April 03 2007 at 03:34 |
I'm also beginning to understand your problem with prog metal ... at least I think I do. I'm currently at work and don't have so much time to write posts, but in the next few days I'll start a thread which might help to clear things up (some more).
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Certif1ed
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Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
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Points: 7559
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Posted: April 03 2007 at 03:24 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ sorry, I didn't mean to discuss this behind your back ... I should have known that by including a link to your review, the discussion would be more about your review than about the vocal correction software.
BTW: I actually agree that it makes sense to use vocal correction software to "optimize" the pitch ... I don't have perfect pitch, but quite efficient "relative pitch", and it always annoys me too when vocalist sing slightly flat ... some people don't care at all or don't even notice it to begin with, but for others (like me) it can ruin the entire song. I'd rather have subtle vocal correction than authentic, but flat vocals.
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I happen to like vocals that sound natural, even if they do tend to sing flat (like ALL singers without exception) - I'm not that keen on over-processed sounds.
Just wanted to make that point - otherwise, I agree with what you're saying!
I don't mind discussing my reviews - there seems to be an undercurrent of misunderstanding about some of them at the moment, which I'd be VERY happy to clear up in as many threads as it takes - so this is a good first step.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Certif1ed
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Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: April 03 2007 at 03:22 |
coleio wrote:
As a massive and long time fan of Opeth, I found the review quite amusing.
The constant critque of his voice as 'comic book'....
The suggestion that they need better lyrics
Did the reviewer listen to the album? If you're going to get someone to review Opeth, get someone who knows what progressive metal is.
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Yes, I listened to the album.
I'm familiar with "growling", and, compared to other growling I've heard, it is comic book sounding. Maybe that's not a technical term - but growling is not a documented technique, so forgive me for making up my own language to describe it.
The lyrics are not exactly Gabriel, Hammill or Fish standard by any stretch of the imagination - and, on the whole, seem shallow to me compared to those luminaries.
I'm afraid you're right, I don't know what Progressive metal is yet - but I am discovering as I listen to more and more of it.
Note: No-one "gets" me to review albums - I do so because I enjoy it and was invited by the site's owners to do so.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Points: 21206
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Posted: April 03 2007 at 03:15 |
^ sorry, I didn't mean to discuss this behind your back ... I should have known that by including a link to your review, the discussion would be more about your review than about the vocal correction software. BTW: I actually agree that it makes sense to use vocal correction software to "optimize" the pitch ... I don't have perfect pitch, but quite efficient "relative pitch", and it always annoys me too when vocalist sing slightly flat ... some people don't care at all or don't even notice it to begin with, but for others (like me) it can ruin the entire song. I'd rather have subtle vocal correction than authentic, but flat vocals.
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Certif1ed
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Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
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Posted: April 03 2007 at 03:02 |
Using vocal correction software is not a big deal - nearly everyone does these days, it seems, and there is a particular sound you get when it kicks in.
When we do our vocals, for example, we use Antares - but the main thing is to get the performance as accurate as possible, because if a note is too far away, ie a quarter of a tone or more, from the intended note, Antares can get confused and attempt to retune.
There are other, far more subtle artefacts it leaves behind, and I believe I can detect them in the track I mentioned - if I hadn't noticed it, I wouldn't have mentioned it.
It's like when I reviewed Greg Lake's rendition of "Jerusalem", and noted that his intonation went flat.
I have perfect pitch, and it's easy for me to hear when pitches are not as they should be.
The point about "comparing to Gentle Giant" is that this is an open ballpark - I believe that every album on this site can (and should) be compared to others so that a fair and relative marking system is used.
Gentle Giant are demonstrably at the pinnacle of what is achievable in Prog Rock, in terms of compositional techniques - the foundation of the genre, and Genesis are indisputably one of the bands that define what Prog Rock is.
Hence, the comparision is completely fair.
*Next time you have a discussion about my reviews, please extend an invitation to me - I'm flattered that you should wish to discuss my creations, but I'd like to know what you're saying about me so I can defend myself!
Edited by Certif1ed - April 03 2007 at 03:13
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Visitor13
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 4702
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Posted: March 31 2007 at 04:37 |
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No idea if he did or not.
Still better than using vocal correction hardware (the more traditional means) - cigs and alcohol.
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2006
Location: Belize
Status: Offline
Points: 5308
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Posted: March 31 2007 at 04:33 |
OpethGuitarist wrote:
im actually suprised he was able to get through the whole thing without much of a peep
and LOL @ vocal correction software - making up facts is the way to go now right guys?
peter gabriel used vocal correction software fyi
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Quit being a n00b, man.
It is common knowledge that every death metal band steals the vocals from Decapitated Walrus's myspace and alters them with correction software.
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sig
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OpethGuitarist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 25 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1655
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Posted: March 31 2007 at 03:35 |
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im actually suprised he was able to get through the whole thing without much of a peep
and LOL @ vocal correction software - making up facts is the way to go now right guys?
peter gabriel used vocal correction software fyi
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back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums
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OpethGuitarist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 25 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1655
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Posted: March 31 2007 at 03:26 |
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or in my case sincere laughter
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back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums
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Trickster F.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2006
Location: Belize
Status: Offline
Points: 5308
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Posted: March 31 2007 at 02:25 |
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I value Certified's opinion on various kinds of music and often tend to agree with him, but, no offense, every review of a metal album makes me raise my eyebrows in sincere surprise.
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sig
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darkmatter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 23 2006
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 2760
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Posted: March 30 2007 at 20:00 |
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OK, just wondering!
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Points: 21206
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Posted: March 30 2007 at 17:58 |
Wow, so many responses ... many more than in my thread about the sig image service changes!  @darkmatter: You're right, I wasn't sure where to post this thread ... but I didn't mean to bash Certif1ed's review. I was simply amused when I read the bit about the vocal correction software (his exact words were " and the "melodic" vocals are flat (in style - vocal correction software is an
amazing thing) for the main part"), and I thought that discussing this particular issue would be ... a bit of fun, nothing serious.@coleio, enteredwinter: I agree that it makes little sense to compare any band to Gentle Giant ... you also don't compare every scientist to Einstein, or every classical composer to Mozart. On the other hand you have to have some expectations ... but I'm sure that somewhere between Manowar and Stravinsky there *is* a middle ground.
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coleio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 272
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Posted: March 30 2007 at 16:43 |
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Exactly the reason I was so aggravated. Gentle Giant are'nt in the same league as Opeth, in fact they're playing a different sport entirely
:)
Edited by coleio - March 30 2007 at 16:44
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Eat heartily at breakfast, for tonight, we dine in Hell!!
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Akerfeldt accused of using vocal correction sw!
