Your definition of an epic

The Letter M wrote: Strictly speaking about length, I often categorize epic songs in several groups based on song length. You have the short epics which can last 7-12 minutes. There are the regular epics which go from 13-18 minutes. There are Side-Long epics, lasting anywhere from 19-24/25 minutes. (yes I still call modern epics of this length Side-Long epics, like The Great Nothing by Spock's Beard or Stardust We Are by The Flower Kings). Long Epics last from 25-30 minutes, and the aforementioned Flower Kings have a couple of those. Super Epics are any songs from 30-50 minutes, depending on several things. Some examples of this are Dream Theater's Six Degrees or Part I of Neal Morse's Testimony. Anything above 50 minutes might as well be an Epic album, such as Neal Morse's ? or the upcoming Fear Of A Blank Planet, which is said to be like one long song anyways.   As for musical qualities, I do agree that there needs to be some sort of introduction that's a bit drawn out, there are some subsections/movements (although not necesarry), and there's a climax with a powerful, moving ending. There are also many recurring themes or thematic/motific material that is used throughout, or plays a large part in the musical score.   Lyrically, the epic is usually a story, like someone brought up the poetic epic, which are myths and legends told in lengthy poems. I think the best epics are the ones with stories in them, and aren't just about people or things, but about ideas or events, real or not. The lyrics don't all have to tie together though or even make much sense, but if there's a loose connection both musically and lyrically between all the sections, then it becomes an epic.   But that's how I feel about epics. And I love epics.   On a side-note, how do people feel about Epics with subsections? Should they be seperate tracks on the CD or one whole track? By that I mean, would you rather have an album like "The Music That Died Alone" by The Tangent, or the second disc of "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence", or something more like both Transatlantic albums, where even though they have several parts to them, each song is still one track?   -M.

An epic should end at a noticeably higher place than the start: a qualative leap; a perfect example would be Starless. It should feel longer than its actual duration because of the amount of different themes fitted in. And, if it's really good it should leave you feeling emotionally drained by the end.

I have listened to epics less than 5 minutes. Simply being a long track doesn't make a piece an epic. There a lot of Yes "epic"s of 20+ minutes which I don't feel match any of these criteria. Most Opeth track's are around 10 minutes. Few of them I consider epics, more movements.

mrgd wrote: It seems to me that we've lassoed the word 'Epic' and started to apply it to what seems to be basically a long and varied piece of music to create our own esoteric terminology. While that's very innovative, it's really a misnomer. An Epic is a narrative work of poetry often celebrating the achievements of heros in history or tradition, according to my dictionary. Other than the reference to a narrative there is no specific mention of length. The subject matter and depth of description often dictated it's length. Therefore, technically speaking, there is some question as to whether the term can appropriately be applied to a piece of prog. music.[ How boring is this]? It's one of these terms like 'masterpiece' we use all the time, but don't get me started on that. Anyway, there is cetainly an argument to say that it would be more accurate to refer to a 'piece' or , as we often see, a 'suite' [e.g. The Valentyne Suite] to describe a musical work comprising parts, movements, a concept etc. irrespective of length, as distinct from something which might otherwise be nothing more than a long song. [Remember what IAN says - 'Life's a Long Song' - not necessarily an epic].

I agree with your perspective, it seems there might be a problem/misunderstanding, though minor, with the word, in attributing it to music, whereas it's derived from literature. What I understand is that people "transfered" that piece of nomenclature to a more popular conception of the term, to describe something of an opulent, sumptuous, or simply enormous sense of grandeur, in comparison or a metaphor to the literary epic. A much less rigid system of semantics there, nevertheless, it's harmless, as long as people recognize it as a non-literal term and understand why it's called so, given the more literal sense of the expression. I'd also prefer labeling those songs as suites - perhaps because it's not so common.
Anyhow, "Epic" songs are, in my world, transcending in importance, complexity or emotional instigation, in comparison with the standard material, normally bedecked with a sense of larger greatness, with a content of high, uncanny significance and manifest (or exacerbated to seem such) - often phylosofical -, that'll either move the listener or overwhelm him (naturally depending on the listener himself, too). Exceding in magnitude of concept, it requires a more complex arrangement, thus presented divided in pieces, each contributive to a larger theme, which may or may not cause an extension of the song's length. In example, I deem Stairway To Heaven to be an epic piece, given the quaint, unfathomable theme and composition of the song and its progression in emotive effect, yet it's only a tad over seven minutes. Speaking of Zeppelin, I guess Achilles Last Stand would fit the literary/literal definition of epic best.
On a different level, I don't consider Yours Is No Disgrace an epic, despite its longevity surpassing that of Stairway's.
Summing it up, Epic is "our" expression of what we understand be grand, formally and in content.

By the way, I prefer to have my epics solidly cohesive, when it comes to pieces. Tracks just stray, or induce to such, from the main theme. In Tangent and LTE's Three Minute Warning, they're almost useless, in DT it's just understandable, since they're already too separate by nature, but it'd be best to be more like TransAtlantic and Yes, if there's to be info on the pieces' beginning and ending.

inpraiseoffolly wrote: Either a song over 15 minutes or a song with multiple, easily distinguished parts.   Both are used.

yep...pretty much

Surely they're more epic than hammerfall for example,that's for sure 

The track Ocean Cloud  from Marbles (marillion) is epic!

This explains a lot. Thanks

An epic song is anything by Rush! 

I feel an epic song is a song that has different parts to it (musical or lyrical). It also helps if the song is longer than 10 minutes. A great instrumental section is always welcomed.

The Letter M wrote: Strictly speaking about length, I often categorize epic songs in several groups based on song length. You have the short epics which can last 7-12 minutes. There are the regular epics which go from 13-18 minutes. There are Side-Long epics, lasting anywhere from 19-24/25 minutes. (yes I still call modern epics of this length Side-Long epics, like The Great Nothing by Spock's Beard or Stardust We Are by The Flower Kings). Long Epics last from 25-30 minutes, and the aforementioned Flower Kings have a couple of those. Super Epics are any songs from 30-50 minutes, depending on several things. Some examples of this are Dream Theater's Six Degrees or Part I of Neal Morse's Testimony. Anything above 50 minutes might as well be an Epic album, such as Neal Morse's ? or the upcoming Fear Of A Blank Planet, which is said to be like one long song anyways.   As for musical qualities, I do agree that there needs to be some sort of introduction that's a bit drawn out, there are some subsections/movements (although not necesarry), and there's a climax with a powerful, moving ending. There are also many recurring themes or thematic/motific material that is used throughout, or plays a large part in the musical score.   Lyrically, the epic is usually a story, like someone brought up the poetic epic, which are myths and legends told in lengthy poems. I think the best epics are the ones with stories in them, and aren't just about people or things, but about ideas or events, real or not. The lyrics don't all have to tie together though or even make much sense, but if there's a loose connection both musically and lyrically between all the sections, then it becomes an epic.   But that's how I feel about epics. And I love epics.   On a side-note, how do people feel about Epics with subsections? Should they be seperate tracks on the CD or one whole track? By that I mean, would you rather have an album like "The Music That Died Alone" by The Tangent, or the second disc of "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence", or something more like both Transatlantic albums, where even though they have several parts to them, each song is still one track?   -M.

Well, I am pretty flexible with my epic definitions.  I've even heard songs in the 3 to 4 minute range that I think of as mini-epics because they have distinct parts and go through a cycle of sorts (and no, they can't be verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus type pop songs).  But generally speaking, they have to be over 7 minutes long.  As to Tangerine Dream and similar lengthy atmospheric stuff, I guess I don't really consider those as epics in the traditional sense as they tend to flow as one entity and are fairly simplistic in composition (though they often have various sections to them).

As to breaking epics into tracks...........I really hate when artists do that   In both the cases you mention (Music that died alone and 6 degrees) I join them into single tracks on my computer.  To a certain extent I understand why they might choose to do that, so the listener can clearly see where the artist intended the parts to begin and end, but for the most part I never have much trouble doing that myself when they are one track.

(I am reminded of a CD player a friend of mine had many years ago, that actually showed which part of Cygnus X-1 Book Two from Hemispheres you were currently listening to..........that track is a single 18 minute track, but the song has 5 or 6 parts.......not sure if they make CD players like that anymore and I assume the CD itself would have to have meta data the CD player could read to know which part it was on.........seems like a great thing for prog albums )


Edited by infandous - February 15 2007 at 14:31

A long track with fantasy lyrics, eg. Hemispheres or anything by Magma.