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MadcapLaughs84 View Drop Down
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Points: 658 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Top 100-Related
    Posted: January 26 2007 at 11:26
Easy Livin made an excellent appointment here. If the album is not prog at all, you can't gve them a 5 stars rating.
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 11:21
Kotro touches on an important aspect here. Some bands are classified as prog-related because the majority of their output is not prog. They have however made one or more prog albums. Deep Purple and Wishbone Ash are two such bands which come to mind.
 
By excluding prog related bands from the chart, you potentially exclude prog albums.
 
Mike has long advocated classifying individual albums, and that is something M@x has as one of his intentions for the site.
 
As far as 5 star ratings are concerned, if an album is not prog, it should not be rated as a "Masterpiece of prog". But as they say, you can lead a horse to water.....
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MadcapLaughs84 View Drop Down
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Points: 658 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 11:20
LOL, sorry
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kazansky View Drop Down
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Points: 5085 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 11:19
that wasn't me who wrote that part, you quote the wrong person
The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us.
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MadcapLaughs84 View Drop Down
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Points: 658 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 11:18
Originally posted by Kotro Kotro wrote:

And now a story:

 

When I arrived at these Archives and Forum, a couple of years ago (when Art Rock was taking in most of current PR bands and there was even a "genre" called Progressive POP) I wondered if bands like Purple and Queen could be added in a special page of "honorary mentions" (mentions consisting more of albums, rather than bands) - which would be a lot diferent than the current status. Yet another problem with Prog-Related is the freedom of adition. I was one of many who pushed for Queen and Deep Purple to be added to the Archives, but only because of their first albums.



I agree with that idea, some of the bands as Prog Related and Proto-Prog just have 2 or 3 influential albums. That would be great and it would bring more credibility to the site.
    
    

Edited by MadcapLaughs84 - January 26 2007 at 11:21
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Points: 2815 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 11:13
Originally posted by kazansky kazansky wrote:

i won't call proto prog and prog related as a genre, it's more like a term that used in this site to point out why those bands are here regardless they aren't prog bands.

maybe it's a good idea to separate them into different top 100 list
 
Many people, including myself, agree that there isn't a "Prog Related" genre. However, in this site it gets the same treatment: it is up there in the frontpage along with Canterbury, Italian, Symphonic, &c. It has its own page like the other well defined genres, a "20-best" just like the rest, and from there arises the confusion.
 
It's not as simple as creating a separate rating list. It is more about creating a separate rating SYSTEM. Another source of greater confusion is the above-mentioned problem of the use of a formulaic rating system. While I believe a non-prog album CAN be an excellent adition to a Prog collection (just recently did it to Blackfield), it should be impossible for all to consider them "masterpieces" of a genre they don't belong to. But if a "prog-related" album reecks perfection in someone's view, like "Argus" does in my eyes, it's hard for you to rate it lower than you think it deserves. 
 
And now a story:
 
When I arrived at these Archives and Forum, a couple of years ago (when Art Rock was taking in most of current PR bands and there was even a "genre" called Progressive POP) I wondered if bands like Purple and Queen could be added in a special page of "honorary mentions" (mentions consisting more of albums, rather than bands) - which would be a lot diferent than the current status. Yet another problem with Prog-Related is the freedom of adition. I was one of many who pushed for Queen and Deep Purple to be added to the Archives, but only because of their first albums.
 
The problem lies in the completionists (which have their undeniable value) that add to the band's discography with a series of non-prog records. For instance, it is still my opinion that only the first four Deep Purple albums should be listed; an example of correct non-completionism is my own compatriot José Cid, who has a long recording career but has only two albums listed (I suppose the reason for this lies in the fact that not many completionists observe his case; and the one who, like me, notice the lack of albums, do nothing to complete it because they know they don't belong to this site).
 
I firmly believe that, in theory, the above-exposed solution of a separate page and rating system for "honorary mentions" could do the trick of adding to the info in the Archives, serve as recomendation, but not get entwined in the web of "real" (if one can consider it that way) Progressive Rock. But, like I say, it's all theory, I have absolutely no idea of the feasability of this "project". We could use some expert feedback on that.   
Bigger on the inside.
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kazansky View Drop Down
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Points: 5085 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:44
yeah !
The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us.
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progismylife View Drop Down
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Points: 15535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:43
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:

OK, I'll open it and see what comes out of it... You all, though, try to be propositive and don't expect we Admins to do all the work!Wink


It seems kazansky beat you to making a thread in the Improvements section.
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:41
OK, I'll open it and see what comes out of it... You all, though, try to be propositive and don't expect we Admins to do all the work!Wink
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progismylife View Drop Down
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Points: 15535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:36
Well somebody should make a thread about how to do that sort of thing. It is a way to actually see some "progress" on this site. 
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:34
No, not Tech Talk, that's for things like stereos, CD players and such.. Help Improve the Site is the place to do it.
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progismylife View Drop Down
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Points: 15535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:27
Originally posted by Ghost Rider Ghost Rider wrote:



I have a request for all of you, though... Why don't you come up with a proposal of how to implement a different rating system for PP/PR albums, so that we Admins can submit it to the owners? Talking about things is all very good, but sometimes we should adopt a more pragmatic approach.



Clap

I was trying to say that in my last post on here. I do not know (unfortunately) how to do this but I'm sure if we get people who can work with such things (like MikeEnRegailia) then it could happen. Maybe a thread in the Tech Talk section asking about how to do this?
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:24
Originally posted by Philéas Philéas wrote:

Originally posted by laplace laplace wrote:

it puzzles me that people are actually allowed to give the five star rating to prog-related bands at all.


Clap

I share this opinion. I don't really see how a band that isn't Prog could be essential to Prog collection.

The simplest way around this problem would be to rename the five star rating, so that it will be something like "very, very good" instead of "essential".


Exactly.... Personally, I think reviewers should allowed to give five stars to albums like, say, "Made in Japan", "Abbey Road", or "A Night at the Opera", which are not prog but masterpieces all the same, as well as influential in many respects. However, it is absolutely true that calling them masterpieces of prog is highly misleading. I remember someone in the past suggesting such a definition as 'a masterpiece of rock music', or even just 'a classic'.

I have a request for all of you, though... Why don't you come up with a proposal of how to implement a different rating system for PP/PR albums, so that we Admins can submit it to the owners? Talking about things is all very good, but sometimes we should adopt a more pragmatic approach.

PS: Progismylife, you took the words out of my mouth (or rather keyboardLOL)...Clap


Edited by Ghost Rider - January 26 2007 at 10:26
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progismylife View Drop Down
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Points: 15535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:15
I wish people would do something about it instead of just sitting here and grumbling about how PR and PP are in the top 100. Not that you aren't just sitting there but "Let's See Action" (a song by The Who).
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kazansky View Drop Down
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Points: 5085 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:14
so they stuck to 4 stars regardless how briliant they are ?
The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us.
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Joolz View Drop Down
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Points: 1377 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:12
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

Should prog-related and proto-prog albums be rated by how good they are, or by their progressiveness and significance to prog? I think albums like Revolver and Strange Days are worth five star, but not really "masterpieces of progressive music". Confused

Well, they can't be 5 stars then Confused On a general rock music site you would be quite at liberty to give them 5 stars [depending on any definition of course!]
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Vompatti View Drop Down
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Points: 67407 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:09
Should prog-related and proto-prog albums be rated by how good they are, or by their progressiveness and significance to prog? I think albums like Revolver and Strange Days are worth five star, but not really "masterpieces of progressive music". Confused
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Points: 11682 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:06
I dont think it's an impending necessity but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing the proto/related albums off the top 100
<font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]
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kazansky View Drop Down
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Points: 5085 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:04
make a different list is the best sollution to end all the dispute over all these PP and PR matters IMO

hopefully...
The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us.
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progismylife View Drop Down
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Points: 15535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:02
So is there a way that a separate list of just proto/related bands could be on? We need help from people like MikeEnRegalia to figure out an algorithm if it is possible to do. 
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