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Ricochet 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
 Topic: Jarre: Progressive Electronic or Prog Related?Posted: November 11 2006 at 11:00 |
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oh? my bad in that case  but it's still unsubstantial. up in the Go and the Go Live albums, you can hear the magic of Lalou and Karen, of "Brother" James here and there and...uhm...of any implied guitarists. and of the three main mentioned: Yamash'ta, Winwood and Shrieve.  |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 10 2006 at 23:33 |
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I think yopu're mistaken Rico, I'm talking about GO, an incredible Jazz/Fusion/Electronic/Prog album and Klaus didn't played percussion:
Klaus played Synth, Moog and keyboards.
Mind blowing album.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 10 2006 at 23:34 |
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I|I|I|I|I
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: November 10 2005 Status: Offline Points: 200 |
Posted: November 10 2006 at 14:24 |
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Congrats to Ricochet for summing up all the thoughts in a thread that grows more convoluted by the minute.
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Go and listen to my music.
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31725 |
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
Posted: November 10 2006 at 09:19 |
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okay, another rounded-up thoughts post:
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
Posted: November 10 2006 at 09:05 |
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Everything sounds better. |
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
Posted: November 10 2006 at 09:01 |
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In and of itself may have no emotion, but it can get within such a substance and such a ... "credibility"...that it's an emotional music. Of course there is no science in identifying emotion. It's an impression and ultimately you guide yourself towards the thing that speaks out more load, more appropriately or more profoundly. Music, by the general though may be, but in depth it's emotion, it's a human expression etc. Concerning Tomita (and electronists or musicians, why not), it's not the synthesizer being deeply artificial and sharply unsubstantial, it's the artist with his hands on the synthesizer, making out the music and modelating his intentions. I don't hate Tomita's synth artificiality, I dislike Tomita's general concept of doing plastic shapes from normally emotive reasons. ...in short.
popular isn't a prog qualificative or a dis-qualification. from here came my question, if there is anything wrong with Jarre gathering up an incredible audience and a general interest? - is this the true source of it being made pop, in a blatant close-minded way? cause I'm tired of...repeating questions.
Ways and ways...  In this, now accomodated, genre, I never implied Jarre is the obscure, the profound, necesarily the artist and so on...Happy "sweet" sounding music is a quality, not a reference. |
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Bilek
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: July 05 2005 Location: Turkey Status: Offline Points: 1484 |
Posted: November 10 2006 at 06:26 |
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OK, I'm here to back you up...
I already thought there was a proggy sense in JM Jarre's music, just before he was included in prog-electronic seciton. I didn't think of proposing JMJ, because this section was introduced just before his inclusion anyway! (bands like TD and Kraftwerk debuted elsewhere)
I partly agree with the Klaus Schulze similarity, because Schulze's music is far more innovative than Jarre. But Jarre has enough merits to stand here on his own than mere similarity to some other prog artist...
I find his overlooked and despised works very innovative, intriguing, and having whatever charecteristics needed to be considered as prog
 . The only thing which could have kept him outside Progressive Rock definiton is the lack of "rock" portion, which is since then justified by introduction of the prog-electronic genre; i.e. the other artists featured here hardly contain any "rock" elements in their music (with the possible exception of early TD and Kraftwerk); that means music can be "prog" without having to be "rock"...It's true that solo artists should be considered by their own "solo" works, not their previous participation in a prog band or their collaborations (I also agree that Stomu Yamashta - Go album is a heck of a prog album...). Otherwise Kitaro would have to be accepted here without doubt
 ...Jarre's music is much more than plain pop, or just "electronic" (whatever it might be, without "progressive" moniker!). One only needs to give an ear, extensively. Well, at least to his first handful of albums, anyway!
edit: apparently the parantheses above give the wrong impression: I simply meant I didn't understand what "electronic" without progressive title could refer to... Not to Jarre's highly innovative works, for sure! Edited by Bilek - November 10 2006 at 10:27 |
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Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!) |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 10 2006 at 06:02 |
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Please man I said I'm not so familiar with Scultze solo work but for what I heard I believe he culd be here but I will also quote myself because if we talk about fallacies....:
Schultze's inclusion has no relation with Jarre, each artist has to be here by his own merits and if somebody made a mistake (Not saying that necesarilly is a mistake), this doesn't justify another mistake.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 10 2006 at 06:05 |
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I|I|I|I|I
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2005 Status: Offline Points: 200 |
Posted: November 10 2006 at 01:20 |
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In terms of Shulze, it is a logical fallacy to assume that merely because of his work with other bands/artists, his solo material is also progressive. That's like saying George W. Bush has worked with Democrats, thus he must be a Democrat! Shulze must be in the progressive electronic section on the merit of his own musical work, not his work with other bands, unless the people who put him on the site work in ways I don't understand. EVEN IF we say that Jarre is unoriginal due to his similarities to Schulze (though I think he is quite original, but for the sake of the argument) it would STILL follow that he must be in the same section as Schulze, much like the band Druid is in Symphonic Progressive along with Yes, a band they sound QUITE similar to. I mean, if my logic appears to have gaps in it, please say so! But I think it makes quite a bit of sense. |
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Go and listen to my music.
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31725 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 10 2006 at 01:00 |
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Nothing is a fact, only opinions, I will never claim something I write (except historicall events) as facts, in music nothing is black and white, there are tones of grey, and precisely in those greay areas you can find why an artist is Prog and another don't, those slight differences make a whole point.
If you mention Shultze, just for his work in Tangerine Dream and Ash Ra Temple, deserves to be considered a Prog artist, while Jarre only does public concerst in which the visual effects are as important as the music, not just a visual aid, most of his songs are extremely reopetitive (Including Oxygene which is what consists mainly in variations over a same theme), his encore is a hand clapping and shaking booty piece, his solo for the astronaut is simple and boring, his performances with the laser harp are less than imaginative.
Don't misunderstand me, I have his albums and DVD's, like his music but still I can't find a strong Prog connection
I'm not so familiar with Shultze solo work but his album with Yamash'ta, Winwood and Shrieve is a masterpiece of Prog and DAS WAGNER DESASTER is also closer than Jarre will ever get.
But again, even when Shultze wasn't Prog, the if X then why not Y argument is something in what I never believed.
Iván
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I|I|I|I|I
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2005 Status: Offline Points: 200 |
Posted: November 10 2006 at 00:32 |
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Okay, Okay. In the case we take all of this as absolute fact (you do seem to know a bit more about the aformentioned bands than I do) we can assume that there are "mainstream" artists that did innovative and interesting things, and that you are counting Jean-Michel Jarre among them. But then why are artists like Klaus Schulze, who made some strikingly similar music to Jean-Michel Jarre (albeit in his own style), on the archives as progressive electronic? Unless you think that they should likewise be demoted to prog-related or not be on the site at all, of course. |
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Go and listen to my music.
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31725 |
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005 Location: Chile Status: Offline Points: 4318 |
Posted: November 09 2006 at 23:23 |
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Well, with no Walter / Wendy Carlos comes no Jean Michel Jarré.
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 09 2006 at 23:15 |
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Why wrong analogies Rico? I'm just talking about being curious and innovative: Joshua's Tree was an absolutely innovative album, solid from start to end a new and revolutionary guitar sound and pretty advanced for a POP band, they had from a straight Rock track like "Where the Streets have no Name" that adds an incredible intro and different elemnents, to almost Gospel like in "Still Haven't Found What Looking For" (As a fact they did an outstanding version in a Harlem Church with a Gospel chorus in the DVD Rattle & Hum) also had Power ballads like "With or Without You" and even an absolutely experimental track as "Mothers of the Disappeared"....If this is not innovative for a decade of bland boring POP, well, I can't get what is curious and innovative plus absolutely versatile. Rumors by Fleetwood Mac was the top selling album for years, they formed a band with three vocalists that were able to take the lead in any moment, with three different styles (Nicks was agressive and soft at the same time borderline with Bluies, Buckingham more Rock oriented and Christine Mc Vie was absolutely melodic), the bass and drums were from another era, with a clear Hard Rock sound, they blended all this and created a commercial but intelligent product in an era when Punk and Disco music were fighting for the audience and Prog was going down (sadly), Fleetwood Mac made something simpler (apparently) but reached heights that no Punk or Disco band dreamed of. Sometimes simple is innovative.
REM Out of Time was also a good album and very innovative (Except for Shinny Happy People), songs like Loosing My Religion were almost borderline with Prog, the use of ballaika is impressive, the change of tempos, the total breaks in two parts of the song were pretty advanced and ahead of mainstream and even than most alternative bands of the time.
If you want more, go with Meatloaf's Bat Out of Hell, nobody wanted to sign them because Jim Steiinman's compositions were miles ahead of the ABAB structure, they had two or three different verses with two or three different tempos, operatic piano stravaganzas plus a 150 Kgms guy who was closer to a tenor than to a Rock singer.....that was curious and innovative but not Prog at all. Probably saying Jarre was a POP artist is way too much, but he is mainly a mainstream Electronic artist not a Prog Electronic artist IMHO. Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 10 2006 at 00:21 |
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005 Location: Chile Status: Offline Points: 4318 |
Posted: November 09 2006 at 23:12 |
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...¡¡¡ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ !!!...
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005 Location: Chile Status: Offline Points: 4318 |
Posted: November 09 2006 at 23:11 |
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Sleep related. Like this: "¡J. M. Jarré!" ZZZZ!!!...
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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I|I|I|I|I
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2005 Status: Offline Points: 200 |
Posted: November 09 2006 at 23:08 |
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In my opinion, REM, U2, and Fleetwood Mac may have done a few things that were "curious" and "innovative", but not to the degree that Jarre did. But that's really something that's more of an opinion than a fact. |
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Go and listen to my music.
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31725 |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: November 09 2006 at 17:44 |
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Oh come on, you're talking gibberish - 12:6 is 2:1. And it's currently 14:7 
Making things artificial is what happens when you try to squeeze music into a tired old tradition of chopping the natural interval of an octave into 12 unnatural steps which are by nature, unrelated - ie, not in tune with each other, hence we have equal temperament. A synthesiser is an artificial instrument - it produces sounds by manipulating tones through oscillators. In and of itself it has no emotion - and cannot have. Identifying emotion in music is not a science - for all you know, there might be a wealth of emotion in Tomita's transcriptions. In short - where music is concerned, it is all artificial, and yet none of it is artificial. It all contains emotion, and yet none of it does - the lack of either are not reasons to hate music.
And who are you to judge that a man is simple? Pop is short for Popular - that's all there is to it. Pop music isn't necessarily sweet, and intelligent people can like it as much as "simple" people. Don't forget that thousands of people attended his concerts and bought his recordings - especially the ones I mentioned.
I'm not devaluing Jarre's music at all - I would also throw in Cabaret Voltaire and the Human League for comparison - although it's a bit unfair, as I prefer the dark sounds of the latter to Jarre's happy "sweet" sounding music. Edited by Certif1ed - November 09 2006 at 17:49 |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 27 2005 Location: Nauru Status: Offline Points: 46301 |
Posted: November 09 2006 at 16:04 |
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Curious and innovative does not necesarilly means Prog, REM was curious and innovative, U2 were curious and innovative at least in Joshua´s Tree, even Fleetwood Mac with Nicks and Buckingham were absolutely innovative to the style of POP being done in the mid 70´s.
But none of them is remotely Prog.
Iván [/QUOTE]really good analogies, mr. Iván?  and really no chance of breaking a bit from the POP serious underline? cause that just makes me think that my already two pages arguments are a echoless said thing. |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: November 09 2006 at 14:56 |
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you've seen my definition of prog.. and it didn't include either of those words. I was curioius as to what Paradox thought... Edited by micky - November 09 2006 at 14:57 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: November 09 2006 at 14:45 |
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Curious and innovative does not necesarilly means Prog, REM was curious and innovative, U2 were curious and innovative at least in Joshua´s Tree, even Fleetwood Mac with Nicks and Buckingham were absolutely innovative to the style of POP being done in the mid 70´s.
But none of them is remotely Prog.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 09 2006 at 14:45 |
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Jarre: Progressive Electronic or Prog Related?
Topic Options
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Many would fly off immediately, Tangerine Dream would be among the lucky ones thanks to Edgar Froese's occasionally ecclectic streaming. It's a bit of a conflict regarding Electronic's Rock impulse itself, I say leave it closed and firmly accepted. 