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Peter 
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Joined: January 31 2004
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 Topic: Way to reduce # of 5 star ratings
Posted: November 10 2006 at 09:51 |
Sorry Mike -- you and I often seem to get our wires crossed. 
Thanks for the hug (I'll genuinely have a better day now) -- here's one back at ya!
Have a good Friday, respected sparring partner! 
Take care.
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
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Posted: November 10 2006 at 09:47 |
^ Now it appears like I attacked you - how did that happen? I misunderstood your request, but other than that I just said that I don't like reviews which are solely intended to bash the artist or genre. As long as you don't write such reviews, this doesn't even concern you.  BTW: I don't take any of this seriously, and neither should you!  With the words of the amazing late Kevin Gilbert: "My mind is quiet and still". 
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Peter
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Posted: November 10 2006 at 09:23 |
 MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Peter Rideout wrote:
You know what I don't like, Mike. Have you got any extra copies of albums that you might like, but think I'd hate lying around? Does it perhaps need its overall rating lowered? Would you be able to tolerate me making fun of it, mainly for the purpose of exercising my creative/funny side, and giving my ratings more "balance?" Would you be able to laugh too, even if you strongly disagree with my opinion?
I'll just hold my breath, and keep checking my mailbox.... |
I think the problem might be that you sometimes sound like you're open to recommendations or suggestion, but you're really not. *You* know what you don't like, and your opinion won't change - so where's the point in committing my time to find something new that I think you might like, when all you would do is listen to it a few times with "closed ears" and then write a scathing review just for the fun of it? I don't think that you would really listen to anything which I recommend, as you have already decided that I listen to bad music.
BTW: I *hate* scathing reviews for albums that are generally (read: statistically) accepted as at least "decent" ... 90% of these reviews are unfair . And it doesn't have anything to do with whether I agree with them or not. It's just that often the authors of these reviews are either misinformed about what the musicians tried to achieve, or they simply hate the genre of the album and use the album review as a platform to release their anger or to advertise other genres or albums which in their opinion should be rated much higher.
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Sigh.
Mike, I made it perfectly clear that I wanted something which you thought I would not like, and what I wanted it for. Please read my post again. I did not ask anyone else, and I certainly did NOT expect you to send me anything. (My winking emoticon at the end makes that, and my joking tone, obvious.)
I have read some very funny scathing reviews over the years. Here, for example, there's Tony's witty ELP one, and I think my Styx and Renaissance "Camera Camera" reviews are passably amusing. Both bands have done stuff I like, as I make clear. I invite you to read those reviews, and see if they truly exhibit the hatred, ignorance, or trumpeting of other music which you say are common traits of the negative review.
I take the attitude that it's just music, for goodness sake -- not world politics, global warming, or religion. Different groups of people have different tastes and attributes, and sometimes that can be a source of humour. Much of comedy is based upon "tensions" and dis-connects between genders, generations, races, city vs country people, etc. It's good to laugh at our foibles.
I, in turn, have a creative idea for what I think would be a genuinely funny review, but (without giving my concept away) the music has to be very loud, fast and aggressive, with growly vocals. I honestly think that many people -- including some fans of the music who are able to laugh at themselves, and see the potential for a humourous reaction to the music -- might find it funny. I like ELP -- Tony's ELP review made me laugh. I am a prog fan -- I have read many things here (eg. "Are you a proghole?") that make fun of prog fans and our stereotypical image, and I have laughed to see us so accurately, if exaggeratedly, skewered. In short, I can laugh at myself, and at a musical form that often takes itself too seriously for its own good. Yes, it's just music, and music is a source of pleasure, and fun, for me, and many others.
BTW, Bryan sent me some prog metal so that I could see the diversity and "progginess" of the genre, and I listened and responded to it with an open mind -- just ask him. I have also said publicly here in the past that I can understand why prog metal is here. That is more of an olive branch than you get from some! I have read some stuff that is very much anti metal-as-prog here recently, but as far as I know, you did not respond. You always seem to zero in on me, even when I try to defuse tension, and joke with you, as I did in my prior post here.
Still, however, I find that the two main genres generally have very different fan bases (and always did, historically) -- different in generation, outlook upon the world, and outlook upon beauty, humour, etc. I think the two groups often don't mix very well, and I think that a forced union of older prog and younger metal fans was unnatural, and bound to lead to tension (as you've seen it does -- and it's not all down to me, is it? Many older fans of classic prog feel as I do about metal being dubbed prog.) Perhaps laughing at some of those difference would do us all good, and in the end, bring us closer, or at least decrease tension, and increase tolerance.
Do you think there would be no tensions among different fan bases if alt country and more sophisticated hip hop were to be renamed "prog country" and "prog hip hop" (people have asked for the latter), then grafted on here? Imagine the acts that folk would then lobby for including!
With all due respect (and I do respect you as an obviously intelligent person who passionately advocates and defends his favourite music), I honestly think you sometimes lack a sense of humour, and take it all too seriously, and personally. You sometimes react much as if you wrote the music in question, and as if I am somehow evil, or deliberately deceiving.
Again, regrettably, I find you determined to disparage my personality and integrity, and unable to even fully understand me, so I see no real point in continuing this. We always seem to clash, in the end, so let's just stop this. It's pointless.
Edited by Peter Rideout - November 10 2006 at 09:31
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Online
Points: 21491
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Posted: November 10 2006 at 02:49 |
Peter Rideout wrote:
You know what I don't like, Mike. Have you got any extra copies of albums that you might like, but think I'd hate lying around? Does it perhaps need its overall rating lowered? Would you be able to tolerate me making fun of it, mainly for the purpose of exercising my creative/funny side, and giving my ratings more "balance?" Would you be able to laugh too, even if you strongly disagree with my opinion?
I'll just hold my breath, and keep checking my mailbox.... |
I think the problem might be that you sometimes sound like you're open to recommendations or suggestion, but you're really not. *You* know what you don't like, and your opinion won't change - so where's the point in committing my time to find something new that I think you might like, when all you would do is listen to it a few times with "closed ears" and then write a scathing review just for the fun of it? I don't think that you would really listen to anything which I recommend, as you have already decided that I listen to bad music. BTW: I *hate* scathing reviews for albums that are generally (read: statistically) accepted as at least "decent" ... 90% of these reviews are unfair . And it doesn't have anything to do with whether I agree with them or not. It's just that often the authors of these reviews are either misinformed about what the musicians tried to achieve, or they simply hate the genre of the album and use the album review as a platform to release their anger or to advertise other genres or albums which in their opinion should be rated much higher.
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: November 09 2006 at 19:37 |
OpethGuitarist wrote:
Peter I can more than help you out, if you are really so inclined...
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 Now I've given the game away though....
What the hell -- PM me, if you wish, Joey! 
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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OpethGuitarist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 25 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1655
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Posted: November 09 2006 at 19:00 |
Peter I can more than help you out, if you are really so inclined...
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back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
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Posted: November 09 2006 at 18:57 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ fair enough, who has time to listen to bad music ... but it's not fair to complain that Napster is not a free service ... after all, good music doesn't just make itself. 10 bucks for more than 2 million tracks still sounds quite fair to me.
BTW: I also couldn't care less about the percentage of 5 or 4 star ratings in my profile ... 
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No, I don't want it to be free -- I am agaiinst illegal downloading.  Admittedly, I did some in the past (mostly "one-hit wonder" stuff I'd never have bought), but I had a "crisis of conscience" about two years ago, and am enthusiastically buying CDs again. 
I guess what I mean, but didn't make clear, is that until I am paid (handsomely  ) to listen to and review stuff I don't care for, I just won't listen to it, or try to acquire it. My few very low ratings here were of CDs I was given, or from bands whom I'd enjoyed before (Tull, Rennaissance, etc.).
The opportunities are few, but I actually enjoy writing negative reviews. You get to use a whole new set of adjectives, and it's a great chance to use more humour. In fact, as I've said here before, some of my favourite professional reviews that I've read in magazines, etc, have been the really scathing ones.
I have had a good idea for a (hopefully) funny negative review for some time now, but someone would have to send me some ultra-fast and heavy, growly metal that they think I'd hate, first. (For the sake of my conscience, they'd have to know ahead of time what I was hoping/planning to do with the album: savage and ridicule it.)
You know what I don't like, Mike. Have you got any extra copies of albums that you might like, but think I'd hate lying around? Does it perhaps need its overall rating lowered? Would you be able to tolerate me making fun of it, mainly for the purpose of exercising my creative/funny side, and giving my ratings more "balance?" Would you be able to laugh too, even if you strongly disagree with my opinion?
I'll just hold my breath, and keep checking my mailbox....
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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OpethGuitarist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 25 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1655
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Posted: November 09 2006 at 15:17 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
BTW: I also couldn't care less about the percentage of 5 or 4 star ratings in my profile ...
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Perhaps because that's all you have?  I kid, I kid.
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back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Posted: November 08 2006 at 16:05 |
^ fair enough, who has time to listen to bad music ... but it's not fair to complain that Napster is not a free service ... after all, good music doesn't just make itself. 10 bucks for more than 2 million tracks still sounds quite fair to me. BTW: I also couldn't care less about the percentage of 5 or 4 star ratings in my profile ...
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - November 08 2006 at 16:06
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
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Posted: November 08 2006 at 15:18 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Peter Rideout wrote:
Who's going to buy those albums which I probably won't like for me? You? Max or Ron? (Certainly not me!)
Or should I illegally download them, then spend lots of my limited leisure time listening to music I don't care for? Why? Where is my motivation to do that?
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You live in Canada ... one of the big advantages of this magnificent country is that Napster is available there. So for the price of a few dollars each month you can have access to all these albums that you wouldn't normally spend money on.
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It's still not free though, so it won't happen.
Plus I don't want to have to listen to music I don't really like, anyway. (I use multiple listens to write a review.)
I don't have limitless time for music. I turn to it for pleasure, not out of a sense of duty or obligation.
Plus I want the real CD lyrics, photos & all -- I am a collector.
In any case, I really don't care about the percentage of 4 & 5 star reviews I've written. They accurately reflect MY collection, and what I think of it. Others have expressed concern, not me. (I only responded to point out how I thought a top-heavy weighting overall was inevitable, in a site where reviewers are unpaid fans, not paid professionals being sent music to review.)
Edited by Peter Rideout - November 08 2006 at 15:41
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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johnobvious
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: Nebraska
Status: Offline
Points: 1367
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Posted: November 08 2006 at 13:17 |
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Having people review bands they don't like would be like what is happening now, just in reverse. You would still not be getting an unbiased opinion. Music reviewing can never really be conducted in a vacuum, even by professionals. But do I have an answer to fix it, no.
But one thing I do really appreciate in a review is the referencing of the band's other albums (or albums of like bands). When a new album comes out, any references to previous albums and how it compares does more for me than just trying to describe sound with text. Maybe that could be incorporated in the suggestions for reviews.
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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday
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el böthy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336
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Posted: November 07 2006 at 17:07 |
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Many people rate only the albums they really really like, and in most cases this are the ones that get their 5 star review. I dont see why that bothers you
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Online
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Posted: November 07 2006 at 16:44 |
Peter Rideout wrote:
Who's going to buy those albums which I probably won't like for me? You? Max or Ron? (Certainly not me!)
Or should I illegally download them, then spend lots of my limited leisure time listening to music I don't care for? Why? Where is my motivation to do that?
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You live in Canada ... one of the big advantages of this magnificent country is that Napster is available there. So for the price of a few dollars each month you can have access to all these albums that you wouldn't normally spend money on.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - November 07 2006 at 17:00
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Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981
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Posted: November 07 2006 at 16:41 |
OpethGuitarist wrote:
progaeopteryx wrote:
How about redesigning the algorithm to include the number of reviews a reviewer has made? For instance, a reviewer who only reviews 10 albums will have a smaller effect on any given album's total rating score than a reviewer who has reviewed 100 albums. The more albums you review, the more of an impact you will have on the rating score of any given album. The effect of consistently doing more and more reviews would also retrospectively increase the impact on previous albums the reviewer has reviewed. In addition, some checking on score spreads, as noted previously, would lower the impact if a reviewer gives everything five stars or one star and has done it to say a couple hundred titles.
I believe something similar to this is used at rateyourmusic.com. I don't know if such an idea is statistically helpful as I'm not a statistician. But at the very least, I think it's worth discussing.
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Not a bad idea. Only problem is SeanTrane would rule everything lol. |
to OG
I do not think this would work, however, unless the reviewers who review more write better, more thought out reviews, which might well be the case. What we would do to keep ST from ruling out everything is to say that everyone over 1000 reviews gets the same influence. That way, ST would still have the most influence (until someone else gets up there), but not so much more that it would create a problem. It certainly could work.
I do think we could also limit people to only 50% of their reviews being 5 stars after they've written, say, 20 reviews, as anyone who has heard that many five star albums is a lucky man indeed. I know a lot of prog, and only 6 albums, maybe 7, and a very slight possibility of 8, but only 6 albums have definitely earned 5 stars. I have written 60 odd reviews, with about 50 more that I will write as soon as I get a chance. Not one of those 50 is a five star album.
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OpethGuitarist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 25 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1655
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Posted: November 07 2006 at 16:32 |
progaeopteryx wrote:
How about redesigning the algorithm to include the number of reviews a reviewer has made? For instance, a reviewer who only reviews 10 albums will have a smaller effect on any given album's total rating score than a reviewer who has reviewed 100 albums. The more albums you review, the more of an impact you will have on the rating score of any given album. The effect of consistently doing more and more reviews would also retrospectively increase the impact on previous albums the reviewer has reviewed. In addition, some checking on score spreads, as noted previously, would lower the impact if a reviewer gives everything five stars or one star and has done it to say a couple hundred titles.
I believe something similar to this is used at rateyourmusic.com. I don't know if such an idea is statistically helpful as I'm not a statistician. But at the very least, I think it's worth discussing.
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Not a bad idea. Only problem is SeanTrane would rule everything lol.
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back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums
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moreitsythanyou
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Joined: April 23 2006
Location: NYC
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Points: 11682
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Posted: November 03 2006 at 18:44 |
My idea is add .5 stars. A lot of 5 star albums will become 4.5 star albums which is probably a better rating.
Also who ever said in a fan based will tend to have higher ratings is absolutely correct
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 <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]
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progaeopteryx
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 03 2005
Location: Refrigerator
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Points: 3613
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Posted: November 03 2006 at 18:38 |
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How about redesigning the algorithm to include the number of reviews a reviewer has made? For instance, a reviewer who only reviews 10 albums will have a smaller effect on any given album's total rating score than a reviewer who has reviewed 100 albums. The more albums you review, the more of an impact you will have on the rating score of any given album. The effect of consistently doing more and more reviews would also retrospectively increase the impact on previous albums the reviewer has reviewed. In addition, some checking on score spreads, as noted previously, would lower the impact if a reviewer gives everything five stars or one star and has done it to say a couple hundred titles.
I believe something similar to this is used at rateyourmusic.com. I don't know if such an idea is statistically helpful as I'm not a statistician. But at the very least, I think it's worth discussing.
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Philéas
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Joined: June 14 2006
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Points: 6419
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Posted: October 25 2006 at 13:31 |
Peter Rideout wrote:
Who's going to buy those albums which I probably won't like for me? You? Max or Ron? (Certainly not me!) |
You won't have to listen to them and review them. The admins or
specialist teams choose a couple of albums, and you can choose wheter
you want to review them or not. At least that's the way I'd like it to
work. Forcing people to listen to albums against their will is not a
good idea.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
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Posted: October 25 2006 at 09:01 |
somehow I think that your post lacks context. 
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Pnoom!
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Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
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Posted: October 25 2006 at 08:44 |
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3 ***** reviews, actually...
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Way to reduce # of 5 star ratings
