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PROGMAN 
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 Topic: Should there be a new Category?
Posted: September 01 2006 at 20:46 |
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What about this as a Genre!!
"Brief Prog" or "One Off Prog"
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CYMRU AM BYTH
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Rocktopus
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Joined: March 02 2006
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Posted: August 30 2006 at 19:53 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Rocktopus wrote:
Just found this reply on a thread I had forgotten long ago but ressurrected again today by a memeber, so lets go
Odessa is a concept double album from '69, not too far from the sound of Moody Blues, and equally progsounding.
Oh my God, Odessa was a good album (I heard all the Bee Gees until 1972 more or less) but Prog?????
The title track is as simple and boring ballad as Melody Fair and Lamplight; Give your Best is pure Bluegrass; First of May is a bland Pop ballad, there's not a single Prog moment, good is not synonymous of Prog.Whether you think it boring or not is irrelevant. Its not simple. Its obvious that its been a long time since you've been listening to this double album, since you only mention the albums singles/radiosongs and the title track. Most of the songs on this album wouldn't have been out of place on a Moody Blues record. Even the ones you do mention. Roxy Music or Queen are not here because of their singletracks either.
The fact they used orchestra in the title song or Seven Seas Symphony (As well as others if I remember well because haven't heard this album in years) doesn't make the album Prog, it's simply POP music played with orchestra
ELO's debut has nothing to do with their later Discovery album, and you can' dismiss Genesis' Foxtrot because of We Can't Dance.
First, I repeated endlessly that I hate those arguments if A is here why not B? Because this discussion is about the possibilty of adding an album, not band. I think this time this is a valid argumentation. Much more than your argument: 'no album by this POP/Disco icons gets even remotely close to Prog.' Because Odessa is not a Pop/Disco album, and you know it.
We judge every band for their own merits not because we added band by mistake this opens the door to add other non Prog bands. If you step in dog's feces with one feet, you don't step in with the other to make it even, you take the dirty shoe and clean it.
I still believe (Despite Micky disagrees) that ELO was a mistake, IMO it's a Rock and then Disco band that used Orchestra and orchestral arrangements. That's your opinion fine, but they're still here, and I think its correct.
Genesis made 7 (SEVEN) albums that are in the top 100 of this or any Prog list in the world (At least 5 of them surely are), they were iconic, the whole Neo Prog started and developed following Genesis footsteps.
The Bee Gees made about 35 albums, all POP and some terribly repulsivedisco albums, they wereicons of the disco movement of the late 70's and also made Odessa, a good Pop album with some nice moments, please don't compare both bands. I'm comparing because I was suggesting one album, not the band. so the later discostyle you keep talking about is as irrelevant as Genesis' We Can't Dance is for Genesis being on this site. You did dissmiss my Bee Gees suggestion because of what they did later in their carreer, even if you had heard the album in question.
Same thing here. You obviously haven't heard this album, but that kind of details rarely stops you from having strong opinons.
I never speak without having heard Rocktopus, I even have original LP's of Odessa, Horizontal, Cucumber Castle and even the Soundtrack of Melody as well (I bought Odessa and Melody, my sister bought the rest) My sister always liked Disco, she bought among others Staying Alive, Saturday Night Fever and Here at Last The Bee gees Live, so don't tell me I talk without listening.
I stay in my point, no Bee Gees album should ever be here because they weren't Prog, Prog Related neither remotely related with Prog. We won't agree on the Odessa album, just like we don't agree on ELO.
(Or on your strong hatred towards all hip hop artists you haven't heard)
Iván
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
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Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Cheesecakemouse
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Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
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Posted: August 30 2006 at 19:03 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The big question...Who decides which albums are really Prog? |
We should all decide - collaboratively.
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There would not be anything better for me than adding:
- Their Satanic Majesties Request by the Rooling Stones
- Tommy and Quadrophenia by The Who
- Seventh Son of a Seventh Son by Iron Maiden
- Jesus Christ Superstar by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice.
- Abraxas and Caravanserai by Santana
But still I have my doubts about being this an open door.
If the majority decides to do it, I'll of course accept it and collaborate in the possible, but still not 100% sure.
We have already Varuious Genres where an Andrew Lkloyd Webber album has been added, so there wouldn't even be need for a new genre.
Iván |
Well yeah if Various genres can be used in that sense as you mention with Andrew Lloyd Webber (and adding Miles Davis etc), Ivan, then I'll be satisfied. 
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JJLehto
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Posted: August 26 2006 at 21:54 |
I really like this idea. You can't call a band prog by an album or two that are so...but it's only fair those albums get recognized.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: August 26 2006 at 21:45 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The big question...Who decides which albums are really Prog? |
We should all decide - collaboratively.
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There would not be anything better for me than adding:
- Their Satanic Majesties Request by the Rooling Stones
- Tommy and Quadrophenia by The Who
- Seventh Son of a Seventh Son by Iron Maiden
- Jesus Christ Superstar by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice.
- Abraxas and Caravanserai by Santana
But still I have my doubts about being this an open door.
If the majority decides to do it, I'll of course accept it and collaborate in the possible, but still not 100% sure.
We have already Varuious Genres where an Andrew Lkloyd Webber album has been added, so there wouldn't even be need for a new genre.
Iván
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: August 26 2006 at 20:11 |
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Seyo
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Posted: August 26 2006 at 17:29 |
Yes, for all the bands from prog-related and proto-prog category, only selected albums should be included in PA, not their entire discographies!
The obvious example which "sticks to the eyes" is The Beatles, like "With the Beatles" or "Hard Days Night" are absolute redundancy on this site!  |
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Epitath
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Posted: August 25 2006 at 19:20 |
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sounds like a great idea! Its great that people improve the site :)
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akin
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Posted: August 25 2006 at 12:38 |
No, It would increase the debate over which album is progressive and
which is not. And to be honest, Yes and Genesis albuns from the
eighties should be removed also. If it is to put only prog albuns, it
should be valid to every band.
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progressive
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Posted: August 25 2006 at 12:31 |
so genesis and yes would be in there? i didn't get it.
Why would the name be "Select Albums"? it's stupid.
genre should be considered to albums, then. It would be good to have many genres per band. It would be easier to find bands (meaning albums) from other categories. Categories shouldn't be the thing to lock it. They're just for search, right? And it's nice to put things in boxes, but.. Well, there could be categories where bands go under, but syles should get under bands, too.
Description of a band or genrewould still be relevant. Band could be different styles, but you want some bigger picture of it. Maybe the band stands in time where there were other bands who had something very like the same, but who still are in other categories..
I also think that there could be more non-prog bands, little proggy. It just should be mentioned. For example Genesis' not-so-prog albums could appear somehow differently in the list.
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► rateyourmusic.com/~Fastro 2672 ratings ▲ last.fm/user/Fastro 5556 artists ▲ www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=4933 266◄
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crimson thing
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Posted: August 25 2006 at 06:00 |
^ Elevator Prog" is an inspired category..... 
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"Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS 
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eduardossc
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Location: Mexico
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Posted: August 25 2006 at 03:06 |
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I voted Yes. There should be a category for prog that has the structure and basics of pop. There you could find the very best regarded album in the site "Close to the edge" as "Prog-pop". Or should it be "Pop-Prog"?. You could also find any Spock's beard and The flower kings album as "Easy listening prog", or as "Elevator prog", or "Medical clinic's waiting room prog".
Edited by eduardossc - August 25 2006 at 03:07
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crimson thing
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Posted: August 22 2006 at 17:33 |
I'd be in favour of a selected albums type category, but with a few caveats.
For example, to sidestep the argument that noone can find an all encompassing definition of prog, you could call the new category "Notable albums of potential interest to progfans" (although I'm sure someone could find a snappier definition.) That way, you wouldn't have to thread each candidate album through the eye of a prog needle, merely establish that it had something going for it, along with, of course, a modicum of musical talent....
Then, you follow micky's insisitence on a heterogeneous vetting team, and invite suggestions. (I am assuming, maybe naively, no difficulties in getting volunteers...)Hopefully, you then get an eclectic mixture of interesting albums, not necessarily great albums with vociferous champions, but an interesting lucky dip for anyone who occasionally gets the urge to listen to a band outside their ("their", meaning both the band's and the listener's) normal range.
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"Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: August 22 2006 at 17:02 |
Rocktopus wrote:
Just found this reply on a thread I had forgotten long ago but ressurrected again today by a memeber, so lets go
Odessa is a concept double album from '69, not too far from the sound of Moody Blues, and equally progsounding.
Oh my God, Odessa was a good album (I heard all the Bee Gees until 1972 more or less) but Prog?????
The title track is as simple and boring ballad as Melody Fair and Lamplight; Give your Best is pure Bluegrass; First of May is a bland Pop ballad, there's not a single Prog moment, good is not synonymous of Prog.
The fact they used orchestra in the title song or Seven Seas Symphony (As well as others if I remember well because haven't heard this album in years) doesn't make the album Prog, it's simply POP music played with orchestra
ELO's debut has nothing to do with their later Discovery album, and you can' dismiss Genesis' Foxtrot because of We Can't Dance.
First, I repeated endlessly that I hate those arguments if A is here why not B?
We judge every band for their own merits not because we added band by mistake this opens the door to add other non Prog bands. If you step in dog's feces with one feet, you don't step in with the other to make it even, you take the dirty shoe and clean it.
I still believe (Despite Micky disagrees) that ELO was a mistake, IMO it's a Rock and then Disco band that used Orchestra and orchestral arrangements.
Genesis made 7 (SEVEN) albums that are in the top 100 of this or any Prog list in the world (At least 5 of them surely are), they were iconic, the whole Neo Prog started and developed following Genesis footsteps.
The Bee Gees made about 35 albums, all POP and some terribly repulsivedisco albums, they wereicons of the disco movement of the late 70's and also made Odessa, a good Pop album with some nice moments, please don't compare both bands.
Same thing here. You obviously haven't heard this album, but that kind of details rarely stops you from having strong opinons.
I never speak without having heard Rocktopus, I even have original LP's of Odessa, Horizontal, Cucumber Castle and even the Soundtrack of Melody as well (I bought Odessa and Melody, my sister bought the rest) My sister always liked Disco, she bought among others Staying Alive, Saturday Night Fever and Here at Last The Bee gees Live, so don't tell me I talk without listening.
I stay in my point, no Bee Gees album should ever be here because they weren't Prog, Prog Related neither remotely related with Prog.
Iván
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toolis
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Joined: April 26 2006
Location: MacedoniaGreece
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Posted: August 22 2006 at 07:43 |
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if an artist's or a band's discography consists of e.g. 8 heavy metal albums and 1 heavy/progressive metal album, i don't think that it matters to me...
i am a huge Maiden fan myself but seeing 'Seventh Son' in the PA isn't exactly what i'm looking for...
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S Lang
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Location: Australia
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 05:11 |
[QUOTE=Ivan_Melgar_M, once a band or album has been added, there's no turning back, that's the policy of the site.
Maybe it's time to change that attitude?
Already other members have requested on other threads since a couple of years:
1.- Chicago
2.- Boston
3.- Journey
4.Mountain - Yes, please!
5.- The Cure
6.- Talking Heads
7.- Meatloaf
8.- Vanessa Mae
9.- Elton John
10.- Earth Wind & Fire
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Rocktopus
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Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 04:47 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BTW: Look some posts above, there's one member asking for The Bee Gees already, no album by this POP/Disco icons gets even remotely close to Prog.
Iván |
Odessa is a concept double album from '69, not too far from the sound
of Moody Blues, and equally progsounding. ELO's debut has nothing to do
with their later Discovery album, and you can' dismiss Genesis' Foxtrot
because of We Can't Dance. Same thing here. You obviously haven't heard
this album, but that kind of details rarely stops you from having
strong opinons.
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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WaywardSon
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 2537
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 18:42 |
Peter Rideout wrote:
MANDRAKEROOT wrote:
RycheMan wrote:
Great Idea!
Hopefully those early Rainbow albums would get some recognition. Some Bowie, BOC etc |
This is my opinion!!!
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Do you really think their presence here is going to "make or break" these artists?
I´m not really following you here with "make or break" these artists? Many here would find these albums interesting to discuss, and judging from this poll it´s the majority.
Are you, I and all not still free to like/listen to them?  Of course we are.
Surely most people here (who have attained the age of reason) are familiar with Bowie? Of course.
The arguing would be ENDLESS: "How could you only list Low, Heroes and Lodger? Have you even HEARD Outside? It is way more proggy than those! Why, I oughtta...." (blah blah blah de freakin' BLAH!)  |
The arguing if some artists in specific genres deserve to be there in the first place happens everyday too
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Cheesecakemouse
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Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 18:28 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
No Raindance, there's nothing on trial here, once a band or album has been added, there's no turning back, that's the policy of the site.
BTW: Look some posts above, there's one member asking for The Bee Gees already, no album by this POP/Disco icons gets even remotely close to Prog.
Already other members have requested on other threads since a couple of years:
1.- Chicago
2.- Boston
3.- Journey
4.- Mountain
5.- The Cure
6.- Talking Heads
7.- Meatloaf
8.- Vanessa Mae
9.- Elton John
10.- Earth Wind & Fire
We have to deal with this, it's somehow easy to ignore this incredible requests, but it would be almost impossible to deal with hundreeds if not a thousand albums that sooner or later will be requested.
Iván |
Yeah theres no way the Cure or Talking Heads should be included, great bands but definately not prog, I'm saterting to the floodgates that will be opened, the system isn't perfect with no Miles Davis, but I'm starting to think that allowing him in will cause a lot of problems with other requests.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 18:23 |
No Raindance, there's nothing on trial here, once a band or album has been added, there's no turning back, that's the policy of the site.
BTW: Look some posts above, there's one member asking for The Bee Gees already, no album by this POP/Disco icons gets even remotely close to Prog.
Already other members have requested on other threads since a couple of years:
1.- Chicago
2.- Boston
3.- Journey
4.- Mountain
5.- The Cure
6.- Talking Heads
7.- Meatloaf
8.- Vanessa Mae
9.- Elton John
10.- Earth Wind & Fire
We have to deal with this, it's somehow easy to ignore this incredible requests, but it would be almost impossible to deal with hundreeds if not a thousand albums that sooner or later will be requested.
Iván
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Should there be a new Category?
