Prog or pop?

I will admit that, because I'm so out of touch with modern pop, that you are most likely correct about the current state of affairs with rap and such.  But payola has always existed in some form or another and every major label has always attempted to "manufacture" a superstar and/or pop hit.  It's not new, in other words.  While they can fool some of the people with a one-hit wonder of their own making, they can't fool all the people into believing that a no-talent phenomenon can turn into a Springsteen or Elton, etc.  "Ice, Ice, baby" and "Bridge over troubled waters" were both #1 hits but which is actually considered to be a well-written, classic song?

Chicapah wrote: Which is harder to write?  I'd have to say a pop song and here's why.  A successful pop song must appeal to a very large audience that likes everything from R&B to C&W and counts on radio and television to get their music.  Progressive rock, while obviously more inventive and challenging, already has a core audience that will give the music a couple of listens (if not more) simply because the listeners are more tolerant of experimentation and innovation.  Pop music is harder to write because anything less than a top 40 chart position is considered a failure.  Yes put out "Tales from Topographic Oceans" that is highly complex and as far from pop as you can possibly get, yet fans of the genre are still seeking it out and arguing about its merits three decades later.  You won't find that in the world of Air Supply or Lionel Richie.

This is true of pop music in the past, but today, everything's mass produced, and success is all about luck of the draw. What makes Hawthorne Heights more successful than other emo/pop bands? Absolutely nothing other than that they were chosen by the record execs to be the token emo band of the year. Next year it will probably be someone different. Now, as far as actual pure "pop" like *NSync and such, yes, it is probably very difficult to hit the formula right on the head for how much teen girls will go for it. Am I giving Justin and co. writing credits? Absolutely not. They are merely puppets in a much larger game. As for guys, why is a band like Fallout Boy more popular than Panic! At the Disco? (WHO SOUND EXACTLY THE SAME) Its all about who gets advertised more.

Ghost Rider wrote: I think it takes quite a lot of skill to craft intelligent pop songs - something that hardcore prog nuts tend to overlook.

Indeed. There's more happening in a clever Pop song than in lots of overtly Prog tunes.

But it's not just the listeners - when some Prog artists decide they're goign to write simpler songs, they also dumb down the intrinsic songwriting, i.e. IQ during the Menel years. They have a gift for melody and harmony that puts them above most Neo bands in my estimation, but when they decided to go mainstream - which really could have worked had they kept that aspect of their compositional skills and just cut down a little on the extended structures, solos etc. - they seemed to throw every songwriting trick they knew right out the window in favor of really simplistic AOR and Pop/Rock clichés.

And this obliviousness to what Pop song writing entails if it's going to be something that's at least a notch above Shania Twain, Avril Lavigne or Westlife seems to be pervasive in modern Prog circles. When they compose less complex sections or tunes, they rarely add that layer of filigree or detail that sets smart Pop apart from the catchy bubblegum singalongs that dominate the charts most everywhere.

So you get this weird amalgam of Prog acumen and Pop/Rock ineptitude that's just odd. It's like reading a novel that has fantastic descriptive passages but really hackneyed dialogue.

For Blacksword... My avatar is not exactly ELP, it's THE BEE GEES!!!

laplace wrote: Based on what currently floats around in the charts, I'm not sold on this assertion that "it takes as much talent to write a 3 minute pop song as it does to write a progressive suite" after all.Not that I can't appreciate some pop music, but if I like a popular band they're usually post-punk that has sold well.

    I hear you. There was a time when there were some good pop songs being written. Now it seems to be all formula, effects, and lowest common denominator. Occasionally one may sneak through (I rather enjoyed Fountains of Wayne). Unfortunately, those are few and far between.
    

tortellino wrote: It's a question that's been with me for a long time, and now I'd like you to share your opinion, or to make one if you don't have it! Why a musician with enough skills to write 3 minutes-billion dollar pop songs would write instead 20+ minutes songs (sometimes struggling at that) and (mostly) go nowhere? This thought raised from the fact that most prog musicians (I'm speaking mainly of the old guard of prog) got their reputations when they performed complicated and experimental songs, but made real money only when they got to play more simple and "ordinary" music. As main example, I could bring GENESIS and YES. It's interesting to note that the music these and other groups made money with is generally bashed by the strictly-prog audience, when the overall quality of those songs, if compared to other kinds of music released at the same time, is largely superior. Another case in point is an album I love, "Holidays in Eden" by Marillion, that's not highly rated in this site, but contains many killer songs like "No One Can", "Cover My Eyes" and many others... This is a great pop album by a prog group! I know it's a matter of inspiration and tastes, and everyone should write, play and listen to what he wants, but inspiration comes in many ways and forms; if you want only 30 minutes suites from your favourite bands, maybe you are killing 10 great "small" songs...

I'm just apathetic. I'm sick of some people on here (not you) stressing out on here whether it's "okay" to enjoy listening to one thing or another. I'm not ashamed to like anything. Whether it's Meshuggah or whether it's a catchy song by Ashlee Simpson that I hear on the radio whilst driving: if you like it then LISTEN TO IT, and be proud. It's the only way to be. Do people actually think that Steve Howe, Robert Fripp, etc. ONLY listen to prog?


Edited by coffeeintheface - June 19 2006 at 19:15

dagrush wrote: tortellino wrote: Why a musician with enough skills to write 3 minutes-billion dollar pop songs would write instead 20+ minutes songs (sometimes struggling at that) and (mostly) go nowhere? Some people are artists, others are business people.

I like composing both sorts of music - but at this juncture in my life, I don't have time for full-scale works. I get 2 hours once every couple of weeks or so - so maybe our music isn't too bad when you consider that!

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dagrush wrote: tortellino wrote: Why a musician with enough skills to write 3 minutes-billion dollar pop songs would write instead 20+ minutes songs (sometimes struggling at that) and (mostly) go nowhere? Some people are artists, others are business people.

Some are both. Either simultaneously or alternating ... some prog artists also have mainstream projects which earn them the money they need to be able to make the music they love, others make intelligent mainstream music.

jj1414 wrote: The length of a song has nothing to do with how good it is in my opinion. Most pop music is dismissed as being too simple, too shallow, "it follows a formula" etc... I think that's nonsense, it takes quite a bit of talent to write a good pop song. If someone's going to write a 20 minute song, they should at the very least make every part of it be worthwhile and not just fill in the time with noises and sound effects.

JJ, you're right... It's not the lenght, the intricate arrangements or complicated time signatures that makes a song good, but it's the talent... Unfortunately, sometimes the replication of some "formulas" is disguised as talent, while the real quality of songs that escape those same formulas is not recognized.

You told about noises, and the first group that I thought of are The Mars Volta...
 I don't want to upset anyone with my words, but for me TMV are an example of smartness over inspiration: do they really need 10 minutes or so of noises to make a song 30 minutes long and proggier?

Moreover, do WE really need that 10 minutes noises more than one good song or a shorter and punchier album?