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SlipperFink 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 12 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 230
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 Topic: Overrated?
Posted: June 18 2006 at 19:07 |
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...
Apperantly I have UNDERrated the amount of free time some posters here on ProgFlogFlimFlamFrimminOnTheJimJamFrammenOnZeKrotz have.
OK. Now that the tone for the website has been set by the poster... here's a little joke that should be in keeping.
2 TV antenna's were married.
The ceremony was awful.
But the reception was terrific.
See?
We can all be blithering idiots.
All it takes is a little effort and a whole lot of airplane glue.
SM.
SM.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: June 18 2006 at 17:42 |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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jj1414
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 27 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 85
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Posted: June 18 2006 at 17:11 |
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: June 18 2006 at 04:56 |
 jj1414 wrote:
Um whoa, I just realized that I'm debating with a lot of people who are like 20 years older than me! That's really weird! Kind of cool. I might also be the only female on here too! Confession, the guy I used to have a crush on was a prog fan, and he posted here. Shhhh!  |
Sorry to disappoint you, but I am a female too, and probably even more than 20 years older than you (not that it's a problem to me  ). The thing is, if I were to do the same to get back at all the guys who disappointed me, I would spend the whole day posting on forums instead of doing other things.
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jj1414
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 27 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 85
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Posted: June 18 2006 at 04:52 |
Know what? now I kind of feel bad I said those things, I didn't mean to offend anyone with my opinion, I'm not going to take back what i said but i won't say anything more about it, out of respect and in rememberance of someone i loved. I miss him but he was really stuck up, sorry i took it out on you guys. 
ttyl.
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jj1414
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 27 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 85
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Posted: June 18 2006 at 04:35 |
Um whoa, I just realized that I'm debating with a lot of people who are like 20 years older than me! That's really weird! Kind of cool. I might also be the only female on here too! Confession, the guy I used to have a crush on was a prog fan, and he posted here. Shhhh!
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jj1414
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 27 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 85
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Posted: June 18 2006 at 04:25 |
Ghandi 2 wrote:
jj1414 wrote:
Ghandi 2 wrote:
No, I'm giving the reasons why I don't like Linkin Park, unlike jj, who has only said that he thinks most of prog is too "weird." If you like them, whatever; I'm just saying why I don't like them. And all of their lyrics are like that. Can you name 2 songs of theirs which are not about some unspecified psychic wounds or his girlfriend dumping him/fighting with him?
As for the mainstream comment: Prog-metal is not mainstream. |
I think saying it's weird is about as good as you calling Linkin Park "uninspired". for your information, I have listened to lots of prog. some of it's ok, but most of it is weird and just not very good. Oh yeah, forgot most people who like prog also like Jazz and classical, you all seem to have the same taste. something that might surprise you is that I like classical too, so come off your little high! you're not as superior as you think you are. |
I don't think I'm superior. I think I don't like Linkin Park. And yes, we all have similar tastes; this is a forum for ONE GENRE OF MUSIC! It's a very diverse genre, but it's till only one genre. Would you surprised if everyone at a Punk board shared many tastes? The more you post, the more I think that you are a sneaky troll who is leading us on without being ridiculous enough to get yourself banned.
And I said a lot more than just "uninspired," if you would care to read my entire post.
It's fine if you think prog is not very good; I don't think Linkin Park or most things written since 1980 years is very good, especially anything which is mainstream.
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Why should I care to read the rest of what you have to say? you don't care about what I have to say! I've already asked the question I wanted to ask you guys, it was a simple question, I asked why so many of you are closeminded about other kinds of music because that's the impression I've gotten from chatting with prog fans on other boards, YOU'RE the ones who are continuing to debate with me about it! Pardon me for having an opinion. I guess anyone who has an opinion different from yours is a "troll"? if you were curious as to why punk fans liked only punk music and nothing else, wouldn't you go to a punk board in order to get the answer to your question? I think you would.
Edited by jj1414 - June 18 2006 at 04:26
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Ghandi 2
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 17 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1494
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Posted: June 18 2006 at 00:34 |
jj1414 wrote:
Ghandi 2 wrote:
No, I'm giving the reasons why I don't like Linkin Park, unlike jj, who has only said that he thinks most of prog is too "weird." If you like them, whatever; I'm just saying why I don't like them. And all of their lyrics are like that. Can you name 2 songs of theirs which are not about some unspecified psychic wounds or his girlfriend dumping him/fighting with him?
As for the mainstream comment: Prog-metal is not mainstream. |
I think saying it's weird is about as good as you calling Linkin Park "uninspired". for your information, I have listened to lots of prog. some of it's ok, but most of it is weird and just not very good. Oh yeah, forgot most people who like prog also like Jazz and classical, you all seem to have the same taste. something that might surprise you is that I like classical too, so come off your little high! you're not as superior as you think you are. |
I don't think I'm superior. I think I don't like Linkin Park. And yes, we all have similar tastes; this is a forum for ONE GENRE OF MUSIC! It's a very diverse genre, but it's till only one genre. Would you surprised if everyone at a Punk board shared many tastes? The more you post, the more I think that you are a sneaky troll who is leading us on without being ridiculous enough to get yourself banned.
And I said a lot more than just "uninspired," if you would care to read my entire post.
It's fine if you think prog is not very good; I don't think Linkin Park or most things written since 1980 years is very good, especially anything which is mainstream.
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 06 2006
Location: A² Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 5109
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Posted: June 18 2006 at 00:10 |
jj1414 wrote:
for your information, I have listened to lots of prog. some of it's ok, but most of it is weird and just not very good. Oh yeah, forgot most people who like prog also like Jazz and classical, you all seem to have the same taste. something that might surprise you is that I like classical too, so come off your little high! you're not as superior as you think you are. |
I still have to wonder why someone who doesn't really like prog, is joining us here. No one is forcing you to like it. Why would you want to come here and spread all of this negativity? Were you dumped by a prog fan, or something?
Edited by bhikkhu - June 18 2006 at 00:17
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jj1414
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 27 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 85
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Posted: June 17 2006 at 19:50 |
Ghandi 2 wrote:
No, I'm giving the reasons why I don't like Linkin Park, unlike jj, who has only said that he thinks most of prog is too "weird." If you like them, whatever; I'm just saying why I don't like them. And all of their lyrics are like that. Can you name 2 songs of theirs which are not about some unspecified psychic wounds or his girlfriend dumping him/fighting with him?
As for the mainstream comment: Prog-metal is not mainstream. |
I think saying it's weird is about as good as you calling Linkin Park "uninspired". for your information, I have listened to lots of prog. some of it's ok, but most of it is weird and just not very good. Oh yeah, forgot most people who like prog also like Jazz and classical, you all seem to have the same taste. something that might surprise you is that I like classical too, so come off your little high! you're not as superior as you think you are.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21156
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Posted: June 17 2006 at 18:15 |
^ you're the one who is just replying to my posts saying "thank you for proving my point". But I do agree - let's ignore each other!  I want to talk about music anyway, and you don't seem to be in the mood for that - unless if it involves hurting people (referring to that Asia thread).
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - June 17 2006 at 18:16
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Teaflax
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 26 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1225
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Posted: June 17 2006 at 18:14 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
No response necessary
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I feel the same way. If you don't mind, I think I'll just
ignore you from now on, since you obviously ignore the actual content
of what I write, to the point of proving me right when you think you're
disputing me.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21156
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Posted: June 17 2006 at 18:11 |
^ have a look at this definition: " One can define creativity as the mental phenomena,
skills and/or tools capable of originating (and subsequently
developing) innovation, inspiration or insight. Pop psychology
generally may associate it with right or forehead brain activity or
even specifically with lateral thinking."
Now ... as I said, innovation is a large part of it, but not everything. Applied to (prog) music I think you have to separate the content of the music from the stylistic elements used to transport the content. To use a more simple example: A painter doesn't need to invent new colors, new brushstroke techniques etc. in order to paint an interesting picture. The innovation can be in the content of the picture ... and in music that's also possible. A band like Opeth (to get back to the initial topic) can merely re-combine existing elements of music (Death Metal, Symphonic Prog etc) and use them to make an interesting album like Blackwater Park - and I can choose to call it creative music without them reinventing the wheel like The Mars Volta are trying to do.
And about your reply to my TMV statement: No response necessary - your reply is as devastating as it can get. Just not for me!
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Teaflax
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 26 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1225
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Posted: June 17 2006 at 18:03 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Manipulation #1. Now you're saying that you agree
with me, but then you say that acting within preset boundaries is not
"truly" creative. We don't agree - get used to it.
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What I am getting used to is you not reading what I actually
write - reread the post you were replying to, the point is right in
there.
And I maintain that any definition of creativity has to include
innovation, otherwise you are using the word in a non-standard way, and
should probably reconsider what you mean by it.
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
For
simple, generalizing minds this might be true. But this generalization
is another clever manipulation - it assumes that all prog metal is
doing complex stuff just to impress the listener, which is a ridiculous
statement to say the least.
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Just as ridiculous as your statement about TMV. Actually, less so, come to think of it.
Prog Metal is a genre replete with w**kerism-over-songs and it's
accused left and right of being more about the technique than anything
else. Whether those accusations are spot-on, completely off the mark or
somewhere inbetween doesn't matter; a Prog Metal fan should know better
than levelling the selfsame accusations against another band or genre.
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necromancing777
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 19 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 144
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Posted: June 17 2006 at 17:56 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Teaflax wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
listening to albums like Frances the Mute I fear that people might begin to confuse complexity with creativity. |
Why would you pick FtM? It's not particularly complex - dense, maybe. Sure, it moves away from some "comfortable" tonalities, but it's not particularly close to being as complex on a pure playing level as Jazz/Fusion or much Prog Metal. TMV move away from a lot of Rock Clichés in composition - but that's not too comlex to do for anyone interested in doing it.
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Listening to FTM I'm always looking forward to the quiet, mellow parts ... the quirky parts are a bit over the top for my taste. The complexity is there if you bother to think about the lyrics, and some rhythms are strange (16ths) ... and I get the impression that they're doing it to impress the listener, not because it is called for by the concept. But of course this is all my personal opinion - I know that there are those who love the album for all these things and praise it as the new star on the prog horizon.
Teaflax wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
An artist can be hugely creative without using any time signature change in a song, and without leaving traditional pop chord progressions. |
Right. Like Jon Bon Jovi? :P
Sersiously, creativity is about forging new paths; this has always been the case. That doesn't mean one can't forge a new path within an idiom or genre, but if what you're doing has essentially been done a thousand times before (or - in the case of most Rock music; a million times), it is by definition not creative.
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I don't consider JBJ to be particularly creative - he writes good tunes, and the early BJ albums were simply masterpieces of American mainstream Rock - in particular Slippery When Wet and New Jersey.
And I don't agree with your definition of creativity. Innovation is often involved, but you can also be creative within preset boundaries. I can be creative as a musician without inventing new scales or time signatures ... I don't need a scale named after me in order to be recognized as an artist.
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I whole-heartedly agree on all fronts. As far as Bon Jovi goes, I personally wouldn't buy any of their music, but if someone put on a Bon Jovi record, I wouldn't ask them to turn it off either.
Mars Volta: I for one have always enjoyed 'Deloused' more than 'Frances'. However, I would say that FTM is more "complex" than DITC, but no more "creative".
Edited by necromancing777 - June 17 2006 at 18:06
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"Your progressive hypocrites hand out their trash,
But it was mine in the first place, so I'll burn it to ash."
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21156
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Posted: June 17 2006 at 17:55 |
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Teaflax
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 26 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1225
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Posted: June 17 2006 at 17:50 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Innovation is often involved, but you can also be creative within
preset boundaries. |
Which is exactly what I wrote - preset
boundaries do not preclude innovation, but for something to be truly
creative it does need to have a innovative component, otherwise it is
just mimicry.
And for someone into Prog Metal to complain about any band doing
complex stuff just to impress the listener is pretty much an own goal.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21156
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Posted: June 17 2006 at 17:45 |
Teaflax wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
listening to albums like Frances the Mute I fear
that people might begin to confuse complexity with creativity.
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Why would you pick FtM? It's not particularly complex - dense,
maybe. Sure, it moves away from some "comfortable" tonalities, but it's
not particularly close to being as complex on a pure playing level as
Jazz/Fusion or much Prog Metal. TMV move away from a lot of Rock
Clichés in composition - but that's not too comlex to do for anyone
interested in doing it.
|
Listening to FTM I'm always looking forward to the quiet, mellow parts ... the quirky parts are a bit over the top for my taste. The complexity is there if you bother to think about the lyrics, and some rhythms are strange (16ths) ... and I get the impression that they're doing it to impress the listener, not because it is called for by the concept. But of course this is all my personal opinion - I know that there are those who love the album for all these things and praise it as the new star on the prog horizon.
Teaflax wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
An
artist can be hugely creative without using any time signature change
in a song, and without leaving traditional pop chord progressions.
|
Right. Like Jon Bon Jovi? :P
Sersiously, creativity is about forging new paths; this has always been
the case. That doesn't mean one can't forge a new path within an idiom
or genre, but if what you're doing has essentially been done a thousand
times before (or - in the case of most Rock music; a million times), it
is by definition not creative.
|
I don't consider JBJ to be particularly creative - he writes good tunes, and the early BJ albums were simply masterpieces of American mainstream Rock - in particular Slippery When Wet and New Jersey. And I don't agree with your definition of creativity. Innovation is often involved, but you can also be creative within preset boundaries. I can be creative as a musician without inventing new scales or time signatures ... I don't need a scale named after me in order to be recognized as an artist.
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Teaflax
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 26 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1225
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Posted: June 17 2006 at 17:36 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
listening to albums like Frances the Mute I fear
that people might begin to confuse complexity with creativity.
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Why would you pick FtM? It's not particularly complex - dense,
maybe. Sure, it moves away from some "comfortable" tonalities, but it's
not particularly close to being as complex on a pure playing level as
Jazz/Fusion or much Prog Metal. TMV move away from a lot of Rock
Clichés in composition - but that's not too comlex to do for anyone
interested in doing it.
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
An
artist can be hugely creative without using any time signature change
in a song, and without leaving traditional pop chord progressions.
|
Right. Like Jon Bon Jovi? :P
Sersiously, creativity is about forging new paths; this has always been
the case. That doesn't mean one can't forge a new path within an idiom
or genre, but if what you're doing has essentially been done a thousand
times before (or - in the case of most Rock music; a million times), it
is by definition not creative.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21156
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Posted: June 17 2006 at 17:34 |
^ lol ... now Certif1ed is praising Linkin Park in a prog forum ...
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Overrated?
