Where’s Kansas ? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Topic: Where’s Kansas ?
Posted: March 10 2006 at 05:24

We have to see things in a relative way here. In absolute value and realizing that some groups are better known (and therefore appreciated ) than others, and Kansas is widely known by older progheads but not quite as much by the younger generations - who champions DT, Opeth, TMV, TFK etc...

This younger generation is the majority on this site , as they are on the web in general and they are more motivated and dedicated, just like the older progheads were some 20 years ago (but we had no web at the time). Therefore these list are cluttered with newer albums that have no place there because they are voted in by younger people with much less experiences. I do not mean wrong on the younger generations, but I lauded as a teen as masterpieces albums I even blush at having owned at one point in my life. Simply because I did not know any better!!!

Check out me for example who have maybe a better chance of building an objective (as if that was possible, uh?) and comprehensive Top 100 list (mostly because of the sheer amounts of albums i heard including little heard albums from unkown bands) , even with that "encyclopaedic knowledge" (as it was reffered to me in the last weeks or so), i do not care to do so. Because this is pointless and useless and can only be subjective. How can one consider that TAAB is better than CTTE but not than SEBTP , but on another hand, they might think that CTTE is better than SEBTP but not than ITCOTCK, etc..... >>> this is completely anal and a complete waste of time

Let's face it though, as much as I like SOME kansas album, to be truthful in my personal Top 200 , (if I wazs to make one of course) you might just find the debut in the 150th place and that would be it. But Comus, Jan Dukes De Grey, Cos, Recreation, Univers Zero, Circus (swiss) etc... would get at least one abum in the first 50 at the expense of some Genesis, Yes, Crimson etc... and at the cost of Kansas being pushed backto the 150th spot

In an objective top list , you might just have two album in the top 100 , but Comus and Jan Dukes De Grey would be in there since they should be considered equal regardless of their notoriety.

Let Us Stop With This List Fixation!!!!!

Instead of lauding your dubious favorite and skewing those lists, use the site to discover other artiste not by looking at that list but by reading the reviews.

Reviews are the main goal of the Archives. They are there to be read! not to skew the lists.

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Posted: March 09 2006 at 23:52

bluetailfly wrote:

I think a real honest discussion needs to ensue about why Kansas is not a top tier prog band (they're close, don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Kansas, and of Livgren as well), but for me, some of their lps are too diluted with what I'll call "outlaw rock" songs, songs that really are anathema to true prog. And it is this element (mainly the Walsh song writing contribution) that brings their sound down in my opinion, no offense to Steve Walsh intended. But some of the songs about bar fights, and whiskey and coke and "bein' on the run from the law" just work against the fantastic prog sound that they so masterfully developed. More on this later.

But still in Kansas`s first five albums 75 % were full of very high quality prog rock, what you are saying may be partly true but not enough to make any real difference to what they accomplished as a prog band in their prime (remember most Yes , Elp, Jethro Tull and Genesis recordings consisted of at least 25% crap anyway but just like Kansas the rest of their material was great)

Kansas were writing some very strong material back in the 70`s and Kerry Livgren was on fire and their main song writer, no I`m sad to say theres some deep mysteries about Kansas not being in the top 50 , all I can come up with is statistically Kansas fans don`t like writing reviews as much as the fans of other bands, and to be honest the system should reflect more about the bands not about the motivated fans.

If Kansas released a hyped up CD (The Prog CD of the year) you will find Point of Know return and Leftoverture and Kansas and Masque and Song for America mysteriously come into the top 100, thats my bet, for this reason the top 50 is more a whats in vogue, yep fashion in prog who would have thought ? contest rather than an accurate tool to measure any kind of true progressive value of the artist in question.

Edited by s1ipp3ry

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Posted: March 09 2006 at 22:31

omri wrote:

Ivan,

Sorry that you felt offended by my words about lawyers. I was just surprised and trying to show it in a funny way (obviously you did not find it funny). I know they are people of all kinds in any proffession and from any race, religion & gender.

Since you were so angry I read what you wrote about the American justice and I have to say that it amazes me how hard you take it. Any justice or law system has it's benefits and problems and from what I see in all systems being reach and famous helps you to get away with things others would have payed for. Still, in comparison to the not very far away past it is better then it used to be and the fact people are concidered to be equal in rights makes the differences smaller than ever.

Again, sorry to hurt your feelings. That was never my aim.

I'm sorry OMRI, you caught me on a bad day, I had a terrible week (As I talked via several PM's with Peter) because our best client's General Manager almost forced me to take a family case against his wife, who is a great woman and really loves the children. As I talked with Peter I used multiple excuses to avoid him, but the pressure of my partners was too strong.

I knew I could win the case for him, but my pronciples and instincts said that the kids would be much better with their mother and that the guy only wanted them to stop paying her money.

At the end I told him I'm not an expert in family cases (What is not true and my partners know, so I had problems with them) and sen't him to a stupíd ambulance chaser with no talent who I was sure was going to loose the case.

His wife called me and told me almost the exact words you used but according to law (and ineterest of my firm) I wasn't allowed to tell her I sent the guy to a lawyer that will surely loose the case and how to win the case easily, plus the fact that very few Famiily Judges (Most are women) remove the custody from the mother).

I couldn't even tell her that I strongly believed she had the reason, because that would be illegal because according to our code, since the guy consulted me his problem he was officially my client and I can't give confidential information.

So, I had to accept the shouts of the poor woman and wasn't even able to tell here I agreed 100% with her, and you caught me very angry being that most lawyers (There are not many ambulance chasers as people believe) are misunderstood, we can't cross the line of legality even when it may not be moral.

Peace

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

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Posted: March 09 2006 at 20:52

"The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle."

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Posted: March 09 2006 at 18:53

That great part of drumming (on the Device Voice Drum DVD) is on the track Journey From Mariabronn. I always rewind that part, it´s incredible Clap

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Posted: March 09 2006 at 17:42

Ivan,

Again, sorry to hurt your feelings. That was never my aim.

omri

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Posted: March 09 2006 at 16:43

ivan_2068 wrote:

s1ipp3ry wrote:

van yeah I know, I have device voice drum DVD and Phil Ehart is something else to watch he makes his drumming look so slick and so perfect, BTW I`m a drummer also so phil ehart has always been a role model of mine

I remember practising to chloset chronicles and magnum opus and miracles out of nowhere till I got them beat to beat perfect , I think I learned more from phil than I did from my drum teacher to be honest

My drum teacher always said that I should try not to look at the drums, instead know the exact position, feel and even smell them (Never fully understood his example because my talent was limited) and follow the whole band with the eyes to know when more or less strenght was required to cover any weakness or to notice when any imusician or even the vocalist felt uncomfortable with the volume.

At the same time look at the audience if it was possible to know when a bit more of punch was required, but I could never achieve that, I found myself looking at the kit all the time, most of the drummers I seen (even Peart) look too much at the drums, but Phil never even takes a look, the guy knows where each piece of the kit is and where to make the hit.

When he plays (in Device Voice Drums) the cymbals over his head, the guy has his eyes closed!!!! and plays both at the same time using one hand with each one and even crossing his arms in some moments, it's simply amazing, I've only seen Bill Bruford do something similar a few times, but never so complex movements.

I guess he doesn't let a roadie touch his drums and he personally sets the kit before each show, because a couple of inches may leave him hitting the air.

Probably this is boring for people who never played drums, but it's important to notice how underrated Phil Ehart is.

Iván

BTW: Closet Chronicles is a nightmare for any drummer but nothing compared with Lamplight Symphony, the changes are so dramatic and the drums tempo is a bit faster plus more complex than the rest of the band, there's not a logical sequence for a drummer.

Thanks for that Ivan I actually found that to be quite interesting. Piano players are also taught not to look at your hands but know by instinct the intervals between the keys. That is why I could never sight read music. I never was able to achieve that level of competency.

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Posted: March 08 2006 at 23:57

Ehart is usually overlooked but so are all the members. No one ever
mentions any of the Kansas members musically. You don't even hear Walsh's
name that much and his voice was unmatchable in it's prime.

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Posted: March 08 2006 at 23:47

I guess he doesn't let a roadie touch his drums and he personally sets the kit before each show, because a couple of inches may leave him hitting the air.

Probably this is boring for people who never played drums, but it's important to notice how underrated Phil Ehart is.

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

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Posted: March 08 2006 at 23:22

ivan_2068 wrote:

Slippery, I not only believe Leftoverture is top 10 material, but I also believe:

Robbie Steinhardt (Probably along with Mauro Pagani) is the best Symphonic Prog violin player in the market (Most of the other top ones play Fusion like Jean Luc Ponty and Jerry Goodman)
Phil Ehart is one of the most uinderrated drummers, you just have to watch Device , Voice Drums, the guys has a perfevt toimming and makes anyone believe drumming is easy. Never over plays, almost doesn't sweat, but his technique is absolutely perfect (this comes from an ex-drummer) the guy never looks at his kit, a lot of times has his eyes closed, but knows exactly where to hit the drums or metals to get the best. Easily is a top 10 but never mentioned.
Kerry Livegren is one of the most talented songwritters (With Kansas, his solo stuff is not as great).
Steve Walsj had a very solid voice (Sadly it's lost), but he's still a wonderful keyboardist. Rich Williams is getting even better and Greer is very solid.

Despite all this thoughts, i don't agree with the tactic of promoting any band as in a Karaoke contest.

Iván

Ivan yeah I know, I have device voice drum DVD and Phil Ehart is something else to watch he makes his drumming look so slick and so perfect, BTW I`m a drummer also so phil ehart has always been a role model of mine

I remember practising to chloset chronicles and magnum opus and miracles out of nowhere till I got them beat to beat perfect , I think I learned more from Phil Ehart than I did from my drum teacher to be honest.

In regards to the Karaoke bit I understand what you are saying

Edited by s1ipp3ry

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Posted: March 08 2006 at 23:01

Slippery, I not only believe Leftoverture is top 10 material, but I also believe:

Robbie Steinhardt (Probably along with Mauro Pagani) is the best Symphonic Prog violin player in the market (Most of the other top ones play Fusion like Jean Luc Ponty and Jerry Goodman)
Phil Ehart is one of the most uinderrated drummers, you just have to watch Device , Voice Drums, the guys has a perfevt toimming and makes anyone believe drumming is easy. Never over plays, almost doesn't sweat, but his technique is absolutely perfect (this comes from an ex-drummer) the guy never looks at his kit, a lot of times has his eyes closed, but knows exactly where to hit the drums or metals to get the best. Easily is a top 10 but never mentioned.
Kerry Livegren is one of the most talented songwritters (With Kansas, his solo stuff is not as great).
Steve Walsj had a very solid voice (Sadly it's lost), but he's still a wonderful keyboardist. Rich Williams is getting even better and Greer is very solid.

Despite all this thoughts, i don't agree with the tactic of promoting any band as in a Karaoke contest.

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

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Posted: March 08 2006 at 17:54

Sean Trane is right about people who put negative (and Positive) stars without writing a review to move their favorites into better position. I really never paid attention to the list as far as things I want to buy in the future. I mean LO is 97 but Tarkus is 99?

I went and looked at these two albums ratings . Leftoverature had 5 of it's 70 ratings either 1-2 star but none of those posted a review. Tarkus had no one star reviews but is hurt because far more people rated in 4 star than 5. Of the 5-6 two star ratings at least two of them wrote a review. That is the opposite for LO.

I would have rated both these albums in the top ten and Tarkus would be ahead of LO. To me that was the album that defined prog in 1971 or at the very least was one of the top three pioneer albums at the time. The title track alone is worth a top ten rating. But who really cares? Do you enjoy the music whether or not anyone else gets it? Because if you don't something is wrong with the way you look at things.

Kansas has far more fans on this site that they did when I joined. I think Ivan may have been one the few people here that spoke about them positively. I guess that is how I became a crusader for them here because so few here even gave them or American Prog rock in general the time of day.

It might surprise you all but my favorite band is Genesis followed by ELP then Kansas, Yes, Jethro Tull and Gentle Giant. I have some newer bands I listen to more than the old ones now because they create new music but I always love those groups I mentioned. They are never far from the CD player.

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Posted: March 08 2006 at 16:10

omri wrote:

Ivan ,

Oh my god you are a lawyer ! Lawyers are those cinical guys who use words to get bad people out of trouble and not pay for what they have done. That does not fit loving of prog.

Nope, I'm not a criminal lawyer, and even when I accepted two cases, it was to defend a couple of friends that were beaten by their husbands, and those cases were pro bono because in both cases they were so abused that their husbands controlled all the money and I wasn't even paid my expenses, becauise the court ordered the husbands to pay me US$ 1,000 that didn't even covered 10% of my costs in time, documents and assistant salary.

I take pride to have never defended a rapist, killer, child molestor or drug dealer, I promissed that to my mom, who still today says she's proud of my integrity as a lawyer.

Try to read my position in the Michael Jackson and O. J. Simpson case,. when a few of us said that justice was not served leaving a pervert free, and the second case is even more obvious.

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Posted: June 13 2005 at 19:07 \| IP Logged

I believe USA judicial system is a joke, first OJ Simpson found with the weapon, with blood of the two victims, was pursued by the police after he escaped from the murder scene and the jury found him innocent.

Now Michael Jackson:

Who publicly confessed he used to sleep with children and thought this was correct.
His defense witness Macauly Caulklin (However his name is written) said that as a minor he slept in Jackson’s bed.
Pornography and liquor was found with Jackson’s fingerprints in the same room he slept with children.
ML he settled many cases paying millions
His ex wife offered incriminatory testimony against Michael Jackson in the Police and Prosecution’s office but she changed her version in the court, this is called torpedo and she should have been accused of perjury.
Who's behavior is obvious.
It has been proved that he gave liquor to a minor but the jury decided he didn't do it with purpose of committing a crime, For God's sake, for what reason a grown man who admits he sleeps with children could give liquor to a minor?

Now, just saw the Jury’s press conference, what a bunch of ignorant and mediocres, they were laughing and enjoying themselves as if they were movie stars.

When a reporter asked if any parent would let his son sleep in the same bed with MJ, she said that she was suspicious but that was the mothers fault, everybody else refused to answer the question.

Jury N° 10 said she was impressed by that support for MJ in the door of the court.

A Latin (of those who give bad reputation to Latinos) said that the pornography and liquor in the same room where Michael Jackson slept with children was normal for an adult.

The Jury deliberated for only 30 hours in a ten accusations case, it's simply a joke to justice.

Can anybody believe he sleeps with minors only because he has a pure love for them? That he paid millions to avoid trials when he's innocent? Nobody can be that naive.

And the Judge who admitted this pedophile to be late whenever he wanted or to the court once in pajamas or admitted that circus with those fans shouting Michael Jackson is innocent while the Jury was deliberating, I can say his behavior is at least suspicious.

There’s one justice for the rich and famous and another for the simple mortals, I’m sure that if a priest was simply accused with no evidence of the same crime, the jury would have found him guilty without need for any prove.

Iván

Read my position in favour of death penalty against rapists, serial killers, child molestors, etc. that created long discussions with other members.

So don't judge my integrity and offend me if you don't know me and you haven't even read what I wrote about.

Sorry if I'm too rough in my answer, but I feel proud of my profession, there are great lawyers who really help people as there are ambulance chasers whop give bad name to our proffession, but those are the less.

There are great doctors and those who will let you die if you don't have a credit card or insurance or engineers who build great buildings where humans are going to live using the worst materials.

Yesterday I saw in the National Geographic chanell why a Japaneses plane fell because the worker sent by Boeing only placed one line of seccurity seals to avoid working extra hours and almost 500 persons died.

Sop being dishonest is not an exclusive priviledge of corrupt lawyers, there's crap everywhere.

I know it's a bit narrowminded but I must admit I would never guess that this is your proffession.

It's not narrowminded, it's ignorant , there are civil, commercial, work, sport environmental and even public lawyers.

Back to Leftoverture : We are very close in age and I know this album since 1978. Until 1980 I thought as you do that "Miracles out of nowhere" is their greatest song but after a while, though I still think it's a great song I prefer "Cheyene anthem" and "Magnum opus" cause (IMO) these are much nore complex and deep and interesting and beautiful music aswell.

Why did you wasted your post INSULTING MY PROFFESION instead of saying this with what I may agree.

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

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Posted: March 08 2006 at 13:51

OK, I'm a newbie I know but...

Although I have only recently joined I have been actively visiting this site (several times a day most days) for the past year and a bit. I do consider myself a bit of an expert on the 70's progressive rock scene as that is when I first stared listening to progressive rock (yes I'm old) and I have continued listening to it these past 30 years.

Do I like the top 100 list? Definitely! It is a quick overview of the opinions of the members, most of whom I have grown to admire in their knowledge of music generally and the breadth of their musical interests.

Is the top 100 list absolute? Absolutely not!

Should Kansas be in the top 100? Probably, but clearly the majority think not - or perhaps (as in government) the vocal minority think not. Their special interest may be furthering their own favourite groups but that does not detract from the general value of such a list.

What is great about this site? Many things done well probably but ultimately it's greatest accomplishment is that it has resparked my interest in exploring new music. And as an old fart married with children I do not have the time to listen to music like I did when I was a young man. This site has helped narrow my options (so to speak) and allow me to explore the best (quantitative) of all genres and decades in the least amount of time.

I have an 18 year old nephew who's favourite group is Dream Theater. Is this a bad thing? NO!!! Would he skew the ratings if he became a member and started rating albums? Hmmm, probably.

BUT HERE IS THE THING - thanks to this site I have purchased copies of 'Scenes from a Memory Metropolis' and 'Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence'. He was shocked and amazed when he told me that he liked Dream Theater and I responded that my favourite bit by DT was Scene II from Memory Metropolis. He hadn't listened to Inner Turbulence yet so I lent him my copy! His respect for me grew that day - NOW HOW COOL IS THAT!!!

I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks!

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Posted: March 08 2006 at 12:45

Kansas is certainly among my Top 25, probably my Top 15.

Their albums Leftoverture and Point of Know Return could fit well among PA Top 50, but I really don't mind too much with the ranks.

Guigo

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Posted: March 08 2006 at 11:49

Ivan ,

Oh my god you are a lawyer ! Lawyers are those cinical guys who use words to get bad people out of trouble and not pay for what they have done. That does not fit loving of prog.

I know it's a bit narrowminded but I must admit I would never guess that this is your proffession.

omri

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Posted: March 08 2006 at 11:44

While I wholeheartedly agree that several Kansas albums belong in the top 100, it is futile to try to right the situation via any "call to alarm." As I wrote somewhere else, the top 100 is a distorted freak show of prog rock allegiances--it's there only for our amusement and bewilderment.

I mean, by any true prog rock standard, ELPs LPs would be much higher than they are, and Riverside (whoever they are) would be only a footnote entry viewable via pop-up window.

Anyone who knows prog rock knows Kansas is a great band.

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Posted: March 08 2006 at 09:51

Moatilliatta wrote:

I really don't think Kansas are meritorious of the Top 50. They had some good material, but I personally never found any of it that good.

I suppose The Mars Volta deserve to be there since they have been around for 30 odd years and all with all those Gold records ??? (I`m being sarcastic) seriously I think some of you missed the respect class in primary school, Kansas have earned your respect, even if they are not your thing ... Nothing personal it just seems sad for this site that its got so many things mixed up (and seriously doesn`t want to face up to reality) in the end thats for you the people to work out

(I`m prepared to take criticism for the things I love, so lets have it)

Edited by s1ipp3ry

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Posted: March 08 2006 at 07:00

where's Kansas?
Dorothy: "Toto, I fear we're not in Kansas anymore."

A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta

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Posted: March 08 2006 at 03:35

omri wrote:

Funny discussion I found it !

To Sean Trane - I agree with you about the list being too important to some guys. Yet I would advise you to read your own words. If the list is not important then those who try so hard to promote their favorites and stop others deserves pitty and not hatred.

To all of us - nobody knows all prog bands & albums. It is possible that those we did not hear yet are better than what we allready know. There is no right & wrong here and the list is some kind of an avarage of many opinions.

About Kansas - Leftoverture is in my personal top 50 while the debut & song for america are very good albums but not in the same league of leftoverture (IMO). Point of know return has some great prog songs (hoplessly human, portrait & closet chronicles) but other songs less impressive. Monolyth is maybe non prog mostly but Angels have fallen is one of Kansas' great songs ever and is fully prog IMO.

Very valid point you make and as I said, I was maybe a little harsh on those guys. But that bending the system to fit their needs is bordering on the sabotage or a trolling activity>>> which provoked my anger, but should've not provoked my language outbursts

But when I talk of "lower form of life" or "lowlife" , I do mean it in a pityful way. I mean: do these guys really have nothing better to do than skew top 100 list? Like running after girls and try to get laid? or go out and play sports?

__________________________________________________________

To come back on Kansas, clearly until Leftoverture (included) the vast majority of their music was prog (Masque was a little less so). Most Kansasheads, will defend them until Monolith (included) (which I can still admit) a bit the same way Genesis remained prog until Duke (included) but less so than previously

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword