Yes fans vs. Genesis fans

ken4musiq wrote: This is like Jesus talking to the Pharisees. The musician talking to the lawyer. This is a typical case of not seeing the forest for the trees.  Wow now  you self proclaim being Jesus and we dirty Lawyers are the Pharisees not worthy to talk with you. Hilarious but remember Jesus never contradicted himself, and also read my profile and older posts, this lawyer has studied 5 years of Classical Piano and taken elective courses of Music in the university, plus theology. First you startsaying that Yes is the best band, now you say you're like Jesus Christ and those who don't believe in your dogmas are Pharisees. First of all to think that art and music have anything to do with logical arguments.  I'm not using logic, I'M JUST POINTING HOW YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF REPETEADLY, but again you forget your old posts: Ken4music wrote yesterday but again he forgot: Wny don't you try to come up with one coherent argument about the music rather then trying to disprove my logic,m  which is a lot more subtle than you are able to comprehend. Yesterday you were talking about Logic in music and now you deny it, honestly you're a joke. But that's not all. on another thread you talked about absolute truths and facts: Again Ken4musiq forgot what he said on another thread: Whether you like Anseron voice or not is a matter of taste. Whether he can sing better than Gabriel is a fact, he can as is the fact that Gabriel is a better lyricist than Anderson. Again you use logical arguments, now you ceased to be funny to be pathetic. Second of all to not really be able to understand that you have not debunked the logic of my argument. Holy God, now you contradict yourself in the same post  In the last parragraph you say logic has nothing to do with music and now you say I didn't "debunked" your logic???? Third of all to be so stuck on being right that you become impossible to relate to. Just to give you an example of what I mean.  "Pop" like any word, has several dimensions of meaning and can be used indifferent ways.  Oh Messiah!!!!!, tell me your special meaning of POP  and how you redifined as you say with arrogance in the next parragraph.  I clearly redefined it before I asserted my blurb so you would know exactly how I was using it.  AABA is a pop structure from Tin Pan Alley that was used in and rock and jazz.  I think your chronology works different than the reality,  the AABA STRUCTURE was used by Tin Pan Alley music for the first time in the 1890's (Pop wouldn't be born in almost 80 years), it was used by Vaudeville in the 1920's, it was the most used structure between 1925 and 1930 and used by Jazz since the 30's, by early rock in the 50's, and you dare to say it's a POP structure????? THINK, BRAINS ARE CREATED TO BE USED It comes into rock from pop and the thirty two bar blues. The jazz performers were jamming on these Tin Pan Alley songs. Did you know that? No . .  well now you do.  Just like you called Watcher a symphonic form.  Can you name a symphonic form off the top of your head.  Do you know what sonata allegro is?  What it does? For God's sake, it's used in Popular music  since 1890, The XIX Century!!!!!!, Jazz is older than Pop, Rock is older than POP as a genre, don't talk BS. Second, I said that Watcher of the Skies has a clear Symphonic Progressive structure, you can't think but I believe you can read. So now you are a teacher trying to make a test , I won't dignify your silly question with an answer. right now you should be apologizing for the way you have been going though my posts with red ink like some crazy teacher out of The Wall.  But you can't see that. How can I apologize with a guy who contradicts himself several times, talks BS and lies whenever he wants? And I use red because to separete my statements from your's, i would would be embarrased if anybody could believe your contradictions were writen by me. I said I was done, which means I am done with you.  I would appreiciate it if you no longer reseponded to my posts. I only wrote this blurb to address giangothweed who seemed interested in why I was saying this. Don't expect that, this is a free forum, and I will leave a thread whenever I decide, you may give orders in your house or to your family, but here you can't. Iván (The Pharisee ) BTW: The Sonata Allegro that you mentioned before also used the ABBA structure or the simplified form ABA.

Edited by ivan_2068

Just to show how you try to manipulate things to preove the silly arguments you give, i will go with this one:

Ken4music wrote:

The most common structure from Tin Pan Alley is the aaba structure, also known as aba.  Both Watcher and Roundabout have this structure. It is no accident.  these guys knew their pop music.

According to your argument, the AABA structure is exclusive of Pop or at least you are trying to convince us about that, but:

The thirty-two-bar form, often shortened to AABA, is a musical form common in Tin Pan Alley songs, later popular music including rock and pop music, and jazz, though "there were few instances of it in any type of popular music until the late teens," it became "the principal form" around 1925-1926 (Wilder 1972, p. 56, [1]).

So, this structure is common in ROCK, POP, and even JAZZ

Watcher of the Skies is a Progressive ROCK song, so it's obvious they use some characteristics and structures common in ROCK.  

I could prove you have clearly reorganized the lyric structure of Watcher of the Skies to pretend it takes an AABA form (You omit the instrumental sections at the start and the middle that change the basic structure), but it's useless, because  it's evident AABA is the most common structure to most genres.

You also say properly that the AABA form is called the Tin Pan Alley song.........But you forget to mebtion that the Tin Pan Alley structure was created around 1890:

The history of Tin Pan Alley is a history of the United States as seen by its tunesmiths. We find an incredible variety of materials documented in songs which do, indeed, seem to have mirrored every aspect of American life from the beginning of Tin Pan Alley in the 1890s to the latest digital technology. We can chronicle the changing musical tastes of Americans, along with our social, economic and political concerns, by the kinds of popular music we bought, played and listened to -- from the tear-jerker to the latest rock song.

The Tin Pan Alley song structure is not only usred by Rock, Pop and Jazz, but it's part of the history of music in USA, being common also in almost any genre.

For your proper information, this structure is also called the Thirty-Two-Bar Form, and it was used among others:

Thirty-two-bar form was often used in rock in the 1950s and 60s, afterwhich verse-chorus form became more prevalent. Examples (ibid, 71) include: The Brill Building and other songwriters, such as Lennon-McCartney, often used modified thirty-two-bar forms, often modifying the number of measures in individual or all sections. Examples include (ibid, p.70):

So it's obvious that this structure was created almost 100 years before the POP genre was even born, and it's common to almost any genre, including Rock and Jazz.

If you are going to argue something...use the complete quotes please.

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

They did make a short version of Watcher of the Skies, but it didn't get much airplay, so perhaps with that one they tried to make it into a pop song, but it wasn't 'popular' hence wasn't a pop song.>>

 

Thanks for answering that question.  I was going to ask if they ever released it as a single and if they did did they cut out the opening organ solo. 

Pop song has nothing to do with the idea of "popular,in the sense of mass appeal  At this time, pre-rap, circa 1885-1990, pop is defined by specific structures and practices that have to do with the tradition and audience expectation.  The most common structure from Tin Pan Alley is the aaba structure, also known as aba.  Both Watcher and Roundabout have this structure. It is no accident.  these guys knew their pop music. 

 

look and learn

Fascinating Rhythm

A)

Fascinating Rhythm, 
You've got me on the go! 
Fascinating Rhythm, 
I'm all a-quiver. 

A)

What a mess you're making! 
The neighbors want to know 
Why I'm always shaking 
Just like a flivver. 

B)

Each morning I get up with the sun -- 
Start a-hopping, 
Never stopping -- 
To find at night no work has been done. 

A)

I know that 
Once it didn't matter -- 
But now you're doing wrong; 
When you start to patter 
I'm so unhappy. 

A)

Won't you take a day off? 
Decide to run along 
Somewhere far away off -- 
And make it snappy! 

B)

Oh, how I long to be the man I used to be! 
Fascinating Rhythm, 
Oh, won't you stop picking on me?

Watcher of the skies

A)

Watcher of the skies watcher of all
His is a world alone no world is his own,

A)
He whom life can no longer surprise,
Raising his eyes beholds a planet unknown.

B)
Creatures shaped this planet’s soil,
Now their reign has come to end,
Has life again destroyed life,
Do they play elsewhere, do they know
More than their childhood games?

A)
Maybe the lizard’s shed it’s tail,
This is the end of man’s long union with earth.

A)
Judge not this race by empty remains
Do you judge God by his creatures when they are dead?

A)
For now, the lizard’s shed it’s tail
This is the end of man’s long union with earth.

B)
From life alone to life as one,
Think not now your journey’s done
For though your ship be sturdy, no
Mercy has the sea,
Will you survive on the ocean of being?

A)
Come ancient children hear what I say
This is my parting council for you on your way.

A)
Sadly now your thoughts turn to the stars
Where we have gone you know you never can go.

A)
Watcher of the skies watcher of all
This is your fate alone, this fate is your own.
 

Roundabout

A)

I'll be the roundabout
The words will make you out ’n’ out
You change the day your way
Call it morning driving thru the sound and
In and out the valley

A)
The muses dance and sing
They make the children really ring
I spend the day your way
Call it morning driving thru the sound and
In and out the valley

B)

In and around the lake
Mountains come out of the sky and they
Stand there
One mile over we’ll be there and we’ll see
You
Ten true summers we’ll be there and
Laughing too
Twenty four before my love you’ll see I’ll be
There with you

A)
I will remember you
Your silhouette will charge the view
Of distance atmosphere
Call it morning driving thru the sound and
Even in the valley

Roundabout has this wonderful contrasing bridge section that brings you back to the basic structure, oh, afterthe big jam session,  and it ends with a coda.  Is somebody going to argue that this is a sonata rondo form?

Along the drifting cloud the eagle searching
Down on the land
Catching the swirling wind the sailor sees
The rim of the land
The eagle’s dancing wings create as weather
Spins out of hand
Go closer hold the land feel partly no more
Than grains of sand
We stand to lose all time a thousand answers
By in our hand
Next to your deeper fears we stand
Surrounded by a million years

A)
I’ll be the roundabout
The words will make you out ’n’ out
I’ll be the roundabout
The words will make you out ’n’ out

A)
I’ll be the roundabout
The words will make you out ’n’ out
I spend the day your way
Call it morning driving thru the sound and
In and out the valley

Edited by ken4musiq

I used to like Anderson's voice better, but Gabriel's voice really grew on me, and now it's my favorite.  Actually, I can't listen to too much Yes anymore because Anderson's voice becomes grating after awhile.  Especially on the new albums, he seems to sing a lot more on them than he used it, and it gets kind of shrill and irritating if I listen to too much of it.  Gabriel's voice, on the hand, I never tire of.

As for Roundabout and Watcher of the Skies being pop songs?  No. Maybe the radio edit of Roundabout, but definitely not the full length version.  They did make a short version of Watcher of the Skies, but it didn't get much airplay, so perhaps with that one they tried to make it into a pop song, but it wasn't 'popular' hence wasn't a pop song.

Edited by Gianthogweed

lunaticviolist wrote: And when the hell are ELP going to get into the top 10?!

Yeah, yeah.  They should be on the top, now.  I'm going to fill out mindless reviews to make ELP ratings go UP.

WHO'S WITH ME?

chopper wrote: Winter Wine wrote: Peter wrote: chopper wrote: I like Yes and Genesis - whose side should I be on? As do I -- love 'em both!     That "Chopper" guy, however.... Hey! What did Chopper do to you! he's a good guy Thank you Winter Wine. I've only just noticed this comment from Peter - what did I do? I don't remember doing anything to upset him.

Ah, sure 'twas only a joke! (You know, "Yes fans vs Genesis fans " -- Chopper and I agree on their music, but I still hate him.... As irrational and random as the thread was.)

 

Next time, I'll use the "."

Edited by Peter

Lord Qwerty wonders if anyone here believes Anderson to be a superior vocalist to Gabriel.

ken4musiq wrote: You obviously have not understood one word I have said. Roundabout was numnber 15 in the states and that alone makes it a pop song. Watcher could have been a pop hit if the subject matter was not too intense for mainstream radio.  But it has all the elements of a good pop song, notably pop song structure and a good hook.  this is what I meant when I said that Yes and Geneisis took pop structure and imposed prog elements on them as opposed to KC or ELP who did not. One can asks the question, when does it stop becoming pop and argue that these songs stop becoming pop when . . . .but to just dismiss it shows that you have very little knowledge of music, which is okay but for the fact that you just don't seem to know it.

The radio play of one song doesn't make it POP.

You have thousand of Jazz, Classic Rock, Country (In USA), R&B, Salsa, etc that have radio qirplay, and that doesnt make them POP.

A genre of a song doesn't change because how many times it's played on a radio, that argument is absurd, silly and flawed.

If ten radio stations decide to play The Ninth Symphony of Beethoven and people likes it, would it change to POP?

The structure of Watcher of the skies is far more complex than most of the songs the big 5 Prog bands made, they experimented mixing influences, radical changes, complex keyboards, well elaborated vocals.

You can't call that POP, unless you believe radio DJ's decide which song is POP and which not.

And for those who speak about a mamber by member competition, this is even more absurd. A band is much more than it's members, but honestly I don't believe Hackett is less than Howe, Gabriel than Anderson.

 I believe Squire is technically superior to Rutherford, but the work of Mike in Genesis is flawless and that's enough to make a band work, sometimes even better because it doesn't cause internal problems in a band. Collins is a different case, I like more Bruford's style, but Collins is still a top 10 drummer.

And Tony Banks, may be less showman than Wakeman, probably not so technicall, but he's perfect for Genesis and fpr any band, Wakeman kept joining and leaving Yes for decades, Banks is a band member and by far the most influential keyboardist in the Prog market. Just look at all Neo Prog bands.

Iván

Never mind a battle of the fans, we should round up the band members and let them get on with it. Thing is of course that Yes has a clear advantage, having had some ermm.... well a much large number of band members so that gives them a head start against Genesis. Mind you that Phil Collins looks a hard nut, he was in that Buster film, don't think Bruford or White will be able to stand up to him...and Bruford of course is a bit of a turncoat anyhow....ooh look there's Wakey shoving Banks' mellotron where the sun doesn't shine.... and Squire has grabbed Rutherford by his beard and his tugging his chin onto his knee...etc etc.....

OK very silly and I'm sure it (or something similar) has been done before!

Lord Qwerty ponders:

Could the Knife breach the Gates of Delirium?