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Zac M 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 03 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3577 |
 Topic: Progarchives top 20 flawed-proofPosted: December 28 2005 at 18:43 |
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^Well said, Salmacis
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"Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression."
-Merleau-Ponty |
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salmacis
Forum Senior Member 
Content Addition Joined: April 10 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3928 |
Posted: December 28 2005 at 17:56 |
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'Top 100' lists and such like are all very subjective really; I doubt very much that anyone here would agree with the entire Top 100, and as such arguments over it are somewhat academic really. However, I understand the frustration with relatively new albums thundering up the charts (remember the 'Octavarium' debacle?) from poorly written, 'this band/album is amazing' or the reverse, types. In the end, the 'Octavarium' situation a while back was solved without any problems (the collaborator reviews there especially are superbly written), and I reckon the 'fanboy'/'hateboy' reviews for the album in question will be soon taken from the site. Not having heard the album, I couldn't comment whether the album really was deserving of a place in the Top 100, but nevertheless I feel you can still sort the wheat from the chaff in terms of reviews. |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: December 28 2005 at 17:18 |
P.S. I've recently got some of my tunes up onto Myspace.com - Modern Man appears to be fairly popular with the natives... See what you think by clicking on this link. Edited by Certif1ed |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21206 |
Posted: December 27 2005 at 14:36 |
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^ BTW: I think it's disgusting how you manipulate the chart by issuing a ridiculous 1 star review for Terria. Frankly, I think that this is not appropriate behaviour for a collab. Go ahead if you must, but don't expect me to engage in any meaningful discussion about music with you.
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greenback
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 14 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3300 |
Posted: December 27 2005 at 14:02 |
unfortunately, any top 100 algorithm is not perfect for everybody, because we all find at least 1 irrelevant album in the list, becasue tastes are VERY different. maybe the best thing to do would be to only consider the collaborators' ratings. on the other hand, we can avoid abominations like devin townsend - terria to reach the top by rating low those hyper-overrated albums. i have just received a private e-mail from fishymonkey saying that by my low rating, i lowered the 4.60 average rating of Terria! i said something like "how can you be reliable when you say close to the edge is worse than townsend's terria!" anyway, i do not rate an overrated album low because i want it to lower it in the top list: i rate it low because i want to inform the people that this album is BAD! |
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[HEADPINS - LINE OF FIRE: THE RECORD HAVING THE MOST POWERFUL GUITAR SOUND IN THE WHOLE HISTORY OF MUSIC!>
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Zac M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 03 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3577 |
Posted: December 27 2005 at 12:46 |
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According to Progger, it was the Genesis fanboys and fanatics that were
screwing up the top 100...that was last night. Now, it's other
"fanboys." I still do not believe what he keeps yapping on about, and I
could care less whether a Riverside album is in the top 20 (I haven't
even heard them). If he cares so much, maybe he should write a review
for some albums he thinks should be in the top 20 or 100 or whatever....
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"Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression."
-Merleau-Ponty |
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Figglesnout
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 26 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1455 |
Posted: December 27 2005 at 10:22 |
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The chart is not created by just your tastes, but a combination of all of our tastes, and of course we are all going to disagree on things up there: for instance, I don't agree that Scenes from a Memory deserves to be so high up there...I definately think Frances the Mute or somethign should tkae it's place, but Frances isn't even in the Top 100...I still don't ridicule "the system" though. What's up there is up there and is a collaboration of many thoughts not just yours or mine, and that's fine...if you don't like the Top 100, don't pay attention to it--there are many other great features on this site.
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I'm a reasonable man, get off my case
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terramystic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005 Status: Offline Points: 776 |
Posted: December 27 2005 at 09:44 |
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"Truth has nothing to do with the number
of people it convinces." (Paul Claudel) a top list is far from being perfect... |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21206 |
Posted: December 27 2005 at 09:41 |
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^ A couple of things, Cert:
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: December 27 2005 at 09:30 |
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Well, it's quite obvious that this album made it into the charts through fanboy votes rather than actual reviews - and the reviews do speak for themselves. I'm not being harsh or unfair - there are more chants of "wonderful", "really good" and other spewing praise than constructive and helpful comments. The problem with any chart is that it depends on what is popular, and the reasons behind the popularity of an album can simply be deduced by reading the reviews. When you compare some of the lavish and detailled reviews given to the "Classic" prog albums, it's easy to see which albums get into the charts via fanboys and which through consumate proggers. It's thankfully clear to see that most of the chart is dominated by the progholes, which can't be a bad thing. In short, I think Mike's algorithm is good, but it doesn't and can't take into account the fact that if only people who like it Vote for it (ie, leave a rating but no review), then it gets into the chart. There are plenty of "no review" ratings for other bands too - but this particular album is exceptionally gifted from this perspective... I can feel a review coming on... |
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rushaholic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 13 2005 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1138 |
Posted: December 27 2005 at 09:28 |
Only in your mind it is. I don't mean that to be offensive but it is your opinion. The rankings reflect all of our opinions collectively. We may like some albums better and think that they really are better than others. Other folks have different opinions. I absolutely hate ELP and wonder why they are ranked where they are but that is not the way all of us think. You all need to relax about the rankings. |
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Guests
Forum Guest Group 
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Posted: December 27 2005 at 09:20 |
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When Kansas leftoverture ( known progressive gem) is sitting at number 83 somethings wrong
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rushaholic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 13 2005 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1138 |
Posted: December 27 2005 at 09:20 |
I agree! BTW, the Riverside album is a masterpiece! Fantastic album by a fantastic band. |
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Kotro
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: August 16 2004 Location: Portugal Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Posted: December 27 2005 at 09:17 |
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Besides, Riverside DO deserve to be there...
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Bigger on the inside.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: December 27 2005 at 08:57 |
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I agree with Mike...nio proof at all.
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krusty
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1777 |
Posted: December 27 2005 at 08:42 |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21206 |
Posted: December 27 2005 at 05:15 |
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^ If that is your concept of proof, I hope that nobody trusts you to make any critical decisions in your job. A while ago I created a thread about the impact of ratings without reviews on the chart: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13531 The bottom line is that those ratings usually reflect the general opinion about the album as well as the ratings with reviews. As far as that Riverside album is concerned ... well, I guess you don't monitor many websites or magazines. If you had done that, you would have realised that this album received a lot of praise EVERYWHERE. So why should it not rank high in the chart? If you don't like it, please do us a favor and take your whining elsewhere ... And BTW: Who gives you the right to complain about the album's position in the chart anyway, when you haven't even bothered to write a review yourself yet? Edited by MikeEnRegalia |
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Progger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 26 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1188 |
Posted: December 27 2005 at 04:51 |
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It's very rare I check the charts because I believe the system that is used to compile it is flawed and corrupt and is no way a proper representation. Having just checked the charts in a long time I was astounded to see an album by a little known Polish band at number 19 ie. Riverside's 'Second Life Syndrome'. I scrolled down the charts and couldn't believe that this little known album was above so many great prog classics. The charts are easily manipulated and that is all the proof I need! |
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Progarchives top 20 flawed-proof
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MikeEnRegalia wrote:
