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maani View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lists with a twist!
    Posted: August 29 2004 at 23:42

Larger Bowl:

Actually, your "history" is incorrect.  I went over the entire thread and found the following with respect to posts relevant to this issue:

Ivan offered three posts on 8/23; you had not posted yet.

Reed Lover posted twice on 8/24.

Ivan posted on 8/24 in response to Reed Lover's post.

You posted for the first time on 8/25, and immediately accused Ivan of a "po-faced attitude" and he and other members of being "nerds."  Not exactly "fighting words" perhaps, but unnecessary insults nonetheless.  Thus, from your very first post, you were inappropriately rude and inconsiderate.

James Lee posted on 8/25, making the first reference to your typo.  His exact words were, "nonesense - no matter how you spell it."  This hardly rises to the level of a "personal attack."

On 8/26, Ivan posted in response to your first post.  His post was a "proper" - if serious direct and debative - response to your comments; i.e., it contained no "ill will," insults or invective.  He did make the second reference to your typo - a reference which actually casts it aside as irrelevant.  Thus, not only did he not "attack" you for it, he was specifically setting it aside from all the comments that the two of you had made back and forth up to that point.

On 8/28, you posted your second post, in response to Ivan.  You state, "You are the second to mention my typo."  Your use of the word "mention" belies your post facto "indignation" at it, and your accusations of "personal attack."  In that post, you also resort to yet more name-calling: "pretentious-sounding nerd."  Again, perhaps not "fighting words," but completely inappropriate nonetheless.

On 8/28, Ivan responded to you.  Here, for the the first time - and not unjustifiably, given your prior posts - he responded with impatience and annoyance.

On 8/29, Ivan responded to a post by Zappa 123.

On 8/29, you posted, claiming "personal attack," and calling Ivan a "brain-dead moron."  Yet, as noted above, you had never been "personally attacked."  Still you resorted to unnecessary and inappropriate insults.

On 8/29, Ivan responded to you regarding his use of the phrase (or acronym) "in my humble opinion," and your mean-spirited comment in that regard in your 8/29 post.  Note that many people use that phrase or its acronym.  Yet no one has  ever "taken issue" with it before.  He also made an appropriate comment re "respect."

On 8/29, I posted my warning to you.

On 8/29, you posted a response, claiming that you had "given my opinion about certain albums and got a very patronizing lecture."  Yet your very first post contained a personal insult to Ivan, and a generalized insult to the members.  Nor was Ivan's post a "lecture," nor was his post "patronizing"; having read it three times now, I repeat that it is direct and "debative," if admittedly somewhat humorless.  But lack of humor does not equal "patronizing."  You also claim that you have been given "no respect for my views."  Based on my reading of the entire thread, I must disagree.  And yet, even were you correct, what do you expect, when your very first post contains both individual and personal insults?

You came into this thread like a bull in a china shop, with a bad attitude, hurling insults and mean-spiritedness.  The written word does not lie: indeed, I invite everyone to re-read the thread and see whether my interpretation is correct.

You are more than welcome to stay.  Heck, we hate to lose members - much less eject them - even when they are "borderline cases" (right, velvetclown? )  I don't think it's a matter of growing a "thicker skin."  I think you simply need to take a few deep breaths, maybe just "listen" to a few debates and see how various people approach them (thus learning a little about various members), and then participate in a way that is more appropriate, and does not require resorting to insult, negativity or mean-spiritedness.  This does not mean you have to be "dainty" or "walk on eggshells" or watch what you say.  There is plenty of gray area: it is all in your approach, and how you present yourself.  If you think something you are saying might be misinterpreted, use some of the emoticons to "soften" it: everyone else does (I just did), and none of us thinks of this as "dainty"; indeed, it can go a long way to preventing just the type of situation we have here.

Give it some thought.

Peace.



Edited by maani
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2004 at 19:55
Originally posted by The Larger Bowl The Larger Bowl wrote:

Originally posted by threefates threefates wrote:

Don't leave, Bowl... just develop a thicker skin...

Rhino what you're talking about.

on a list that mostly consists of opinionated men (and a couple of opinionated females)

Yes, thats about it...

 

THIS IS ELP
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2004 at 19:41
Originally posted by threefates threefates wrote:

Don't leave, Bowl... just develop a thicker skin...

Rhino what you're talking about.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2004 at 19:39

Don't leave, Bowl... just develop a thicker skin...

THIS IS ELP
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2004 at 19:23

 

[/QUOTE]

Dude, he was just attempting to discuss your view on the album, and you exploded and started insulting him.

[/QUOTE]

I'll get me coat.......................

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2004 at 19:10
Originally posted by The Larger Bowl The Larger Bowl wrote:

Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

Larger Bowl:

Greetings.  I have been following your "dialogue" (a nice word...) with Ivan.  and although Ivan has a tendency to be literal, direct and "serious" in his debates, in the months that I have "known" him, he has never once "meanly" denigrated any other members' tastes or opinions, much less insulted anyone or called them names.  Even his reference to your typo, while perhaps unnecessary, hardly rises to the level of "personal attack."

On the other hand, you have resorted to insults to a degree that simply will not be tolerated on Progarchives.

Therefore, if you can't "play nice," you will be ejected from the sandbox...

And at the risk of sounding "imperious," this will be your only warning...

Peace.

i dont understand what my crime is. I gave my opinion about certain albums and got a very patronising lecture and a spurious reference to a mis-spelling and I became the bad guy.  I have been given no respect for my views, however contentious, from this person. At the risk of sounding "imperious"Censored

Dude, he was just attempting to discuss your view on the album, and you exploded and started insulting him.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2004 at 19:03
Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

Larger Bowl:

Greetings.  I have been following your "dialogue" (a nice word...) with Ivan.  and although Ivan has a tendency to be literal, direct and "serious" in his debates, in the months that I have "known" him, he has never once "meanly" denigrated any other members' tastes or opinions, much less insulted anyone or called them names.  Even his reference to your typo, while perhaps unnecessary, hardly rises to the level of "personal attack."

On the other hand, you have resorted to insults to a degree that simply will not be tolerated on Progarchives.

Therefore, if you can't "play nice," you will be ejected from the sandbox...

And at the risk of sounding "imperious," this will be your only warning...

Peace.

i dont understand what my crime is. I gave my opinion about certain albums and got a very patronising lecture and a spurious reference to a mis-spelling and I became the bad guy.  I have been given no respect for my views, however contentious, from this person. At the risk of sounding "imperious"Censored

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2004 at 18:50

Larger Bowl:

Greetings.  I have been following your "dialogue" (a nice word...) with Ivan.  and although Ivan has a tendency to be literal, direct and "serious" in his debates, in the months that I have "known" him, he has never once "meanly" denigrated any other members' tastes or opinions, much less insulted anyone or called them names.  Even his reference to your typo, while perhaps unnecessary, hardly rises to the level of "personal attack."

On the other hand, you have resorted to insults to a degree that simply will not be tolerated on Progarchives.

Therefore, if you can't "play nice," you will be ejected from the sandbox...

And at the risk of sounding "imperious," this will be your only warning...

Peace.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2004 at 15:28

IMHO is a respect formula for the rest of the members from a person who knows his opinion is not the only truth.

Respect, a word that is not part of your dictionary.

Iván 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2004 at 14:21
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Funny answer Large Bowl, you don't give a single valid answer or argument and you dare to catalogue me when you don't even know me.

We all know what you mean with your "typo" nonesence, but Who cares?

If it makes you happy, I'm a nerd and you're the owner of the universal truth, I don't care what you think or believe.

But, this is the last time I waste my time and the forum members patience answering you.

To the rest of the forum members, please excuse me for this post,next time I will  try to ignore some personal attacks.

Iván

Just for the record, I was never banging Mussorgsky, as a fact he is one of my favorite musicians, what you can find reading carefully my first post.

If "you all know what you mean with your "typo" nonesence, but Who cares?" why make the reference to it in the first place-dont you see that the reference to it completely invalidates your plea "To the rest of the forum members, please excuse me for this post,next time I will  try to ignore some personal attacks."

Making a reference to my typo is a personal attack, you jackass!! It suggests that you think that not only is my argument invalid, I am a brainless oaf who cant spell. Reading your posts, you seem to think that you are this great guy (probably 16 or 17 years old) and nobody should challenge your position as a valued contributer. What kind of brain-dead moron thinks he needs to write "in my opinion" every time he offers an opinion-who elses opinion are you going to offer-mine?

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2004 at 13:43
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

imagine the situation if one member sayd I love Genesis and after that 45 answers saying I love them too. 

Iván

 

I love them too!LOL

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2004 at 12:32

Zappa123 wrote:

Quote I agree with you most of the times but leave The beatles alone.They are the legends.I don't know they really belong on our prog pages but I think they were progressive a lot of times.And I dont think in a way like yes,KC,ELP etc but the thruth is that they invented (or better begin) a lot of music styles--and when the rest of the world begin to play this kind of music they went ahead.They made a huge ipression on almost all the bends after(even yes--the first albums --there is a lot of beatles sound there don't you think?

Agree with you Zappa, they were progressive a lot of times. IMHO Abbey Road is a masterpiece but releases as Sgt Peppers and White album are overratedwqhen considered quintuaessential. Both are good, I don't deny it, but not the masteríeces people always insist.

Overrated is not an insult to the band, simply is my personal view about some of their releases, which are good but not in the proportion some people affirm.

Quote No hard feelings,hang on.

Of course there are no hard feelings, we are here to discuss, not to agree always, everybody has their own taste and diversity of opinions is what feeds this and every respectable forum.

Polite discussion and civilized disagreements are part of the fun in a forum, if every member had the same taste this would be boring, imagine the situation if one member sayd I love Genesis and after that 45 answers saying I love them too. 

Iván

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2004 at 06:43
[QUOTE=ivan_2068]

My personal list:

True Masterpieces

1. Genesis – The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
2. Pink Floyd - Animals (and Wish You Were Here)
3. Crimson – In the Court of The Crimson King
4. Yes – Close to the Edge
5. Genesis - Foxtrot
6. Tull - Thick as a Brick
7.
Banco del Mutuo Soccorso – Darwin!
8. Anglagard – Hybris/Epilog
9. Rick Wakeman - Myths & Legends
10. Magenta - Revolutions
11. ELP – Brain Salad Surgery/Trilogy

10 Criminally Underrated Prog Classics:

1. Genesis – Nursery Cryme
2. Focus – Hamburger Concerto
3. Triumvirat – Illusions on a Double Dimple/Spartacus (Unfairly accused of cloning ELP)
4.
Frágil – Sorpresa del Tiempo (Masterpiece of Peruvian Prog’)
5.
ELP - ELP
6. Yes - Drama
7. Kansas - Leftoverture
8. Rick Wakeman – Criminal Record
9. Arthur Brown – The Crazy World of Arthur Brown
10. Steve Hackett – The Voyage of the Acolyte

10 Overrated albums:

1. Anything by The Beatles except Abbey Road
2. King Crimson: Everything after In the Court (Hang me, but that’s my opinion).
3. Yes - Going for the One (and Tormato)
4. Genesis – ATTW3/Duke/ABACRAP
5. Yes - Fragile
6. PFM – Photos of Ghosts
7. Floyd - The Final Cut
8. Marillion: Everything, especially Hogarth era
9. Coldplay: Not remotely Prog
10. Styx – Everything after Styx II

Don't believe in nearly misses, or you get it or not, as simple as that.

Iván

I agree with you most of the times but leave The beatles alone.They are the legends.I don't know they really belong on our prog pages but I think they were progressive a lot of times.And I dont think in a way like yes,KC,ELP etc but the thruth is that they invented (or better begin) a lot of music styles--and when the rest of the world begin to play this kind of music they went ahead.They made a huge ipression on almost all the bends after(even yes--the first albums --there is a lot of beatles sound there don't you think?

The beatles are not only love me do,hard day's night etc.There is Rubber soul,Sgt.Pepper,White album etc. and for that times I think  they were progressive and ahead of the music playing at that times.It's hard to imagine some prog creations without Sgt.pepper I think.And even some psychedelic streams without Rubber soul.The last two or three songs on the album Rubber Soul from 1966 announced a psychedelic era when in 1967 the stream exploded.You take the record and you'll see what I'm talking about.

So the music without The beatles wouldn't be the same then and now and that is a fact.The songs like Strawberry fields forever,A day in the life,Eleanor Rigby....This are the pearls.

And one small miss---King Crimson's Red is a heavy conceptual album and I think is a masterpiece.

No hard feelings,hang on.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2004 at 06:03

Trouserpress wrote:

Genesis - Something about their sound simply leaves me cold. I've tried and tried (God! How I've tried...) to like them, but it simply doesn't gel for me. It doesn't work at all. I understand why so many people love them (almost) but their music curdles in my head. I can't enjoy it.

 

Sorry for you.I heard in a film phrase "you're listening but you're not hearing them.

I love this topic.Here is a battle going on.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2004 at 05:41
[QUOTE=Trouserpress]

Here's a few album lists - some obvious, some less so. Feel free to pick apart my choices and tell me I'm a fool.
Feel free also to make your own lists, using my titles or creating some of your own! If lots of us do it, it should make for some interesting debate.


10 Indisputable Prog Masterpieces:

1. Yes - Close to the Edge
2. Hatfield & The North - The Rotter's Club
3. Van Der Graaf Generator - Pawn Hearts
4. Caravan - In The Land Of Grey And Pink
5. Anglagard - Epilog
6. Jethro Tull - A Passion Play
7. Yes - Relayer
8. Gentle Giant - Free Hand
9. Gong - Angel's Egg
10. King Crimson - Red

 

10 Criminally Underrated Prog Classics:

1. Kevin Ayers - Whatevershebringswesing
2. Murplev - Io Sono Murple
3. Robert Calvert - Captain Lockheed & The Starfighters
4. Krakatoa - We Are The Rowboats
5. Supersister - Pudding En Gistern
6. Osanna - Palepoli
7. Gryphon - Raindance
8. Van Der Graaf Generator - World Record
9. Focus - Hamburger Concerto
10. The Muffins - Mana/Mirage

 

10 Disgustingly Overrated Prog Albums:

1. Spock's Beard - Snow
2. King Crimson - Lark's Tongues In Aspic
3. Yes - Tales From Topographic Oceans
4. Soft Machine - Third
5. Rick Wakeman - Journey To The Centre Of The Earth
6. Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon
7. Anything recorded by Genesis... ever.
8. ELP - Tarkus/Brain Salad Surgery - They're both horrffic.
9. Mike Oldfield - Tubular Bells
10. Traffic - The Low Spark Of High Heeled Boys

 

10 Progressive Near Misses:

1. Frank Zappa - Hot Rats
2. The Flower Kings - Unfold The Future
3. Curved Air - Air Conditioning
4. Henry Cow - Leg End
5. Jethro Tull - Heavy Horses
6. Yes - Tormato
7. Pink Floyd - Atom Heart Mother
8. Thinking Plague - A History of Madness
9. Kevin Ayers - Shooting at the Moon
10. Caravan - If I Could Do It All Over Again I'd Do It All Over You

So... there we are! Your turn!

Well I'm not sure that you know what are you talking about.My comment on your list is "that is not really a list,that's just your opinion what you like and what you don't like.I can respect that but man-be serious.Your few misses:Anglagard,Hatfield&the north,Relayer-I don't know but the masterpieces are not.Then overrated albums:Tubular bells-I think that is a masterpiece and I belive that most of the guys stick with me here.And then about Genesis-if you don't like them that is your problem,the truth is -they are one of the greatest prog bands ever.I think the guys stick with me here too.Atom heart mother was good album.

Your 10 near misses:Atom heart mother was good album....and finaly

FRANK ZAPPA-HOT RATS?----You have to be joking? I know.It's hard to understand ZAPPA.Maybe in the future years you'll understand him-who knows.

Man,I'm almost mad at you.

  • So here's the list.10 masterpieces not in particular order:
  • Genesis-Foxtrot
  • Frank zappa-Overnite sensation
  • Frank Zappa-Hot rats
  • Yes-Close to the edge
  • King Crimson-In the court...
  • King crimson-Red (yes,that is really one of the greatest masterpieces made ever--I saw that few guys putted that album under overrated albums but you have to listen the album again--here is some Brufford's best drumming--not really his best but better than on yes albums)
  • Pink Floyd-The animals
  • ELP-Almost everything
  • Focus-3
  • and once more Frank zappa-One size fits all

And for conclusion ZAPPA album HAVE I OFFENDED SOMEONE?

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2004 at 04:04
Originally posted by threefates threefates wrote:

I just love this forum!!!  I mean where else can I find people who can insult and compliment ELP all in the same sentence.  And you know I don't really care as long as we can continue to discuss them.  Am I addicted to them... you bet your bippy I am!!

Anyway, I can agree on pompous.  They were pompous.. and thats probably what made them so very special.  However, I hate and abhor the word pretentious used in reference to ELP... because they were never pretentious.. they were everything they thought they were...and more!

You can go back to insulting each other now...

I know, I'm not even an ELP fan and I've been defending them pretty steadfastly

I used to care more about pretentiousness before I realized that we're all pretentious to some degree, just as we're all predjudiced in some ways. Sure, we all know the ultra-hip or avant-artsy characters, but it also applies to the kid pretending he's tough to his friends, the middle-aged woman who says she's 3-10 years younger, the old man whose fish gets bigger every time he tells the story...pretentiousness is just another facet to personality. When your source material includes the arts and literature, and your performing style is more theatrical than simply standing and playing, you're apt to be termed pretentious- as if it's an artistic failing to bring attention to classic works or put on an interesting show!

To be honest, I don't think ELP is any more (or less) pretentious than any of the explicitly referential hip-hop or alternative artists out there; it's just that prog draws from a slightly different artistic pool, less Pop Culture and more Western Civ...check out the evolution of art, architecture, clothing, even religion and you'll find period where certain values are replaced by others, only to be themselves replaced by revivals (progressive rock as Romanesque or Gothic...there's a thesis paper for you!). The prog values were overturned for punk values, but that could all change at any time. Soon we may even criticize bands for not being pompous enough!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 19:44

I just love this forum!!!  I mean where else can I find people who can insult and compliment ELP all in the same sentence.  And you know I don't really care as long as we can continue to discuss them.  Am I addicted to them... you bet your bippy I am!!

Anyway, I can agree on pompous.  They were pompous.. and thats probably what made them so very special.  However, I hate and abhor the word pretentious used in reference to ELP... because they were never pretentious.. they were everything they thought they were...and more!

You can go back to insulting each other now...

THIS IS ELP
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 19:38

Funny answer Large Bowl, you don't give a single valid answer or argument and you dare to catalogue me when you don't even know me.

We all know what you mean with your "typo" nonesence, but Who cares?

If it makes you happy, I'm a nerd and you're the owner of the universal truth, I don't care what you think or believe.

But, this is the last time I waste my time and the forum members patience answering you.

To the rest of the forum members, please excuse me for this post,next time I will  try to ignore some personal attacks.

Iván

Just for the record, I was never banging Mussorgsky, as a fact he is one of my favorite musicians, what you can find reading carefully my first post.



Edited by ivan_2068
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 19:07

Bowl thing

You can make a valid point without resorting to personal remarks, you know.

Gotta agree about the spelling issue though.Given the international nature of this forum all kind of syntax, grammar and spelling errors creep in-so what?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2004 at 18:34
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

The Large Bowl wrote: It seems to me that some of you play right into the hands of those that would sneer at prog rock.

Simply, I can't care less of what SOME people thinks about my tastes and opinions, even if they believe it's just "nonsense".

I am sure enough of what I like, so I don't care if people laugh at my taste.

Quote This po-faced attitude just makes you sound like nerds. 

Why do you react like this when you don't agree with someone? Again I don't take offense because I have the greatest of respect for so called nerds, I used to bother them at school, but most nerds are people who know what they are talking about.

Quote I have been listening to prog develop since 1971, some of the albums I have derided used to be big favourites but sound almost ridiculous now. Rick Wakeman is my hero, his Yes stuff still exhilerates me now, but the King Arthur, Journey To The Centre Of The Earth stuff is almost cringe-inducing to listen to.

What, have King Arthur or Journey to the Centre of the Earth changed through the years?

I believe the notes of Journey to the Centre of the Earth are exactly the same today than in the 70's, quality remains, perspective of the listener and fashion is what changes. To be honest I haven't changed my perspective and never cared for musical fashion.

Quote I have seen ELP live umpteen times in the 70's and they were awesome.

I only saw ELP once in 1999 and still they were awesome. 15,000 souls who were at the same show (record for a small city as Lima) thought like me, maybe the nerds bought all the tickets.

Quote That nonesense about Mussorgsky is just patronising, and makes you sound like a character in "Spinal Tap"! No doubt if ELP released a skiffle version of Beethoven's 5th you'd blame that on Beethoven

Won't answer your "nonesesnce" quote, it's not worth

If you take your time and read a bit of history you'll notice that  Pictures at an Exhibition was considered pompous in all Europe when released and it's still pompous.

Please read my whole quote about Pictures:

    1. ELP is a pompous band (though they can be lyrical and romantic sometimes), and that's probably what I like most of them.
    2. Prog' Rock is a pompous genre.

Numbers 2 and 3 clearly express that I accept ELP and in general Prog' Rock are pompous.

I'm not afraid of the word pompous, at least for some of us pompous music is much better than plain and simple commercial music, that's a matter of personal taste.

The funny thing is that you are criticizing prog' music with exactly the same arguments magazines as Rolling Stones use, they call pompous and self indulgent to describe everything that's not mainstream.

Quote and yes clever clogs we all know Mussorgsky was an inveterate drunk

What's your point?

Iván

 

A bit late getting back to this... here goes.

Have you ever watched the auditions for Pop Idol?

All those kids who think they can sing because their friends and family tell them they can instead of being kind and telling them the truth.

Someone should do you a favour and tell you what a pretentious sounding nerd you are. Banging on about Mussorgsky as if you're an authority( I bet you keep Encarta minimised on your screen ready for intellectual emergencies) . Maybe as a Rush fan I should look up everything I can about ST Coleridge, Ayn Rand or John Dos Passos.

You are the second (?) to mention my typo "nonesence".

 QED

 



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