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Krautrock '70's: your favourite bands/authors? |
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moshkito 
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 17510 |
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 Topic: Krautrock '70's: your favourite bands/authors?Posted: November 10 2024 at 07:47 |
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Hi, Thx so much ... it's nice to be appreciated for posting meaningful stuff. The part that is sad is when some folks gang-up to make bad comments that are not even a part of the discussion or subject matter, and get completely ignored by the powers that be. I try hard to stay on par. To me, it is important that folks see "the art" ... and the saddest thing about SF is that no one has written about "the art" over there, and I'm not quite well versed enough to be able to do it, even with some studying. There are things there, within the scene, that make it very different, however, I think that the media spent so much time putting down SF, for being ugly and dirty, to the point of making sure that history looked at it badly ... but its creativity managed to live, and that is a really neat bit of inspiration ... a lot of which is meaningless beyond the "hit songs" ... so folks can post/discuss war songs, but "Foreign Son" is not important ... or heck ... The Edgar Broughton Band ... was incendiary ... (American Boy Soldier/Out Demons Out and other pieces) and a part of many demonstrations.
Edited by moshkito - November 10 2024 at 07:48 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Starshiper
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Joined: September 08 2024 Location: Englantic Status: Offline Points: 571 |
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Posted: November 09 2024 at 19:11 |
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Cluster gets a second vote, which they really deserve. For real, because of their astonishing cosmic structures and otherworldly soundscapes, Cluster should get a lot more votes!
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I prophesy disaster
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Posted: November 09 2024 at 18:12 |
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I'm not very familiar with Krautrock. I do have Faust IV and am somewhat familiar with Brainticket - Cottonwood Hill (an album I think everyone should listen to at least once in their lifetime, but not more than once a day  ). I have listened to some other Krautrock albums, though I don't recall which albums or even which groups.So, I won't vote. |
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No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Lewian
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Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14712 |
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Posted: November 09 2024 at 16:57 |
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Outstanding posting Pedro!
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moshkito
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Posted: November 08 2024 at 22:50 |
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Hi, Especially their early material which I like to say was the Jimi that we never heard ... and will continue not hearing!!! I find their first albums (all the way to Flames) excellent, but for some reason, it seems to never had taken to a lot of fans ... Not sure why we love the antics Jimi and others did, and then think that what Ax Gernrich did was not very good ... the context with which it was done, was way more interesting and far out ... at least a couple of those pieces are still played by GG in their shows ... and probably will continue until Mani stops playing, if he ever does. The changes they made, though are really tough ... After KANGURU (their 3rd album), they changed really hard to a guitar player that was Jon McLaughlin inspired, and it actually was a very good album with 2 long cuts that were outstanding ... but never played, or sort of like ... did anyone hear that? And, of course, the jazzier, and more KRAAN minded next album (TANGO FANGO) kinda took away the "progressive" feeling around GG for me ... even though there were some things in it that were outstanding ... but will never have the appreciation or the listen it deserves. The most impressive one is the one that is ignored which is also a satire on East German music at the time (schlagger) and a very obvious statement that the new inspiration was rock music, not the old crap. "Das Liebendige Radio" was done way before the Wall came down in Berlin, and it really shows what folks thought of a lot of the arts and politics before the Wall came down ... and it has been stated that this was a part of GG that was not appreciated by a lot of authorities in Germany ... the political tone was a problem, and I think that Mani had a hard time with it, and used a lot of his antics and fun for some political moments. Had he stuck to the guitar stuff, or his playing, things might have been easier ... but getting folks to listen to the stuff, nowadays, is a HUGE hassle ... folks pass up stuff left and right ... as is the case in the dramatic thread, where it was very obvious that the comment about one album meant the person likely did not listen to the album at all, or the comment would have been different, I think! This is the sad part of listening to the earlier stuff in the annals of progressive music, and even the rest of "krautrock" that is being treated as a bunch of meaningless songs, with people really having bizarre statements about AD2's first album, as it is ignored that the whole thing is an attack on what the "commune" thing (that created AD1 from which came AD2), was simply an excuse to jump all the women, in these events and daily/weekly parties ... and though some had politics showing, in general, the "commune" simply was an open door policy to free use. Something that also started in SF, but did not end up well when everyone showed up with flowers in their hair! CAN was better setup than AD2 and GG ... they were from the music school and were appreciated for their music knowledge and ability, which is not something new in "krautrock" ... there were many others including the band Agitation Free getting money to go abroad to create "new music". And several members of that music school that were graduates and later the professors ... something that rock music disdains horribly .... in "progressive" and "progrock" you can't have intelligent folks that know a heck of a lot more than a small staff and song! In this sense, both AD2 and GG were, or could be thought of, as being more representative of the populace than the idea of the well educated folks kinda becoming the main drive for what became "krautrock", which was extremely evident in the theater and film, which is very clear ... though completely ignored by the fans these days, it seems. The most important part of "krautrock" is that this is not about "songs" ... it's about a new experience ... and I think we need to express that better ... and that might mean we have to stop thinking of these folks/bands as hit makers and industry darlings ... all of them had serious release issues .... and were (eventually) first appreciated outside their country which says a lot for the media and its politics after WW2 ... it did not want to go "forward" and change with the times ... but it was a bunch of film makers and musicians that stood up and made it happen ... and for this, they all deserve the credit. There ia a book about all this ... and the fact that there were at least 5 or 6 DIFFERENT areas with very different music and ideas, that became, ultimately, a part of the "krautrock" thing, even if some of them couldn't give a damn about it. That book makes a suggestion that the whole thing can only be one, in our minds, as the ideologies in each different area was much more prevalent, than any ideal that we might wish to think about ... it is a very good read, but it kinda makes for the whole "krautrock" thing seem to be just an accident on our parts in discovering it ... and not give the German folks credit for their creativity ... and new freedom that helped bring about a lot of the arts!
Edited by moshkito - November 10 2024 at 07:35 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Lewian
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Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14712 |
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Posted: November 08 2024 at 17:04 |
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Can and Amon Düül II are the big ones, no way can I not vote for them. For third place there are many candidates, Agitation Free, Faust, Popol Vuh,..., but I'll vote for Guru Guru as "most underrated"; they have a lot of great material (not all of it though), always happy to see Mani play. Also only one vote until now.
Albums: Soon Over Babaluma Yeti Guru Guru Live (another great German live album, should be rated higher than 3.85)
Edited by Lewian - November 08 2024 at 17:05 |
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: November 08 2024 at 14:50 |
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Oh, yes, thank you for the playlist. Surely I'll listen to Dom, Gila, Agitation Free and Brave New World albums (and others)ù Edited by jamesbaldwin - November 08 2024 at 14:51 |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Logan
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Posted: November 07 2024 at 14:58 |
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I don't know if you saw the topic, Lorenzo, and it probably won't help but I made a recent topic on German 70s albums in response to another such topic by highlighting different options (despite loving all of the options in the former topic). For that I made a playlist which might give you a taste of some albums to check out. I go into making playlists due to your Interactive series after George (mathman) starting making them. I find the exercise in choosing and album and one track per album, and putting it together strangely satisfying. As a lover of Krautrock/Kosmische music, it's been very nice for me to see several recent polls on the topic, and all of the appreciation that has been expressed. :) It's a little light in a rather dark world for me. |
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: November 07 2024 at 14:39 |
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Any evaluation is subjective, like the judgement of music or film critics. But a true critic makes judgements according to precise, recognisable criteria, with a certain method. In fact, serious critics, once you get to know them, study them, give judgements that at some point you can understand and even predict. Listening ‘scientifically’ to an album means this to me. And if I want to make judgements, make a ranking, first of all it means for example listening to each album 5 or 6 times carefully, reading the lyrics well, before comparing it with others. |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 17510 |
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Posted: November 07 2024 at 07:26 |
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Hi, Here we go, written just for you ... a bit more about the non-scientific style of "krautrock" and why it should not be listened to as you suggest. CAN - Tago Mago, per Holger was culled from at least 20 hours of material and most of it was completely haphazard and not predefined. This is quite clear in the 2 very long pieces. FAUST - Probably less clear, but all the way up to the 3rd or 4th albums, you can easily hear the mere turning of the knob on the synth to get an effect. It was experimental to the last second, and in one segment in a film about Krautrock, one of the guys goes on about playing sticks on a cement drum and other things ... whatever was around, fit the bill! ASH RA TEMPEL - Manuel G said many times that he was much more of a live player than he was a studio player. The early days had a few improvisations, that were nice and gave him a cool background, which we saw clearly all the way to "New Age of Earth" ... after that a lot of his stuff is just him and a synth or two, usually live, and while there were some nifty and far out pieces, in many ways they do not really come close to the beauty and touch of the earlier stuff. NEU - Not much needed to be said here, but other than the drum beat, it was wide open. POPOL VUH - First album was all synth ... which Florian promptly dropped and went acoustic. I think he was more interested in the vocal side of it all and his albums seem to go that way ... but the work was meditative, spiritual and likely ... experimental to a point ... not sure it was all free form, specially further in with a guitar player. The vocals never felt "free", but another instrument in the whole thing. AMON DUUL 1 - Not a band at all ... the recordings are, more than likely just a bunch of Saturday Night music-in for everyone and anything can be done and was done ... aside from very obvious studio trickery (the scratch that breaks up the flow -- even FZ did that, and so did Monty Python!). But listen to it ... and you will find moments that ended up in the first 3 albums by AD2. All free form as it wasn't about music ... it was about getting stoned, drunk, and just flying along with whatever before jumping on the women for sex ... something that AD2 make sure to pee on in their first album ... which folks still think is something else, other than the very obvious "party" ... that is getting weird as the time continues and the dope gets to come on stronger. Amon DUUL 2 - Some folks that had been inside the events on AD1, ended up here and show up several times all the way to WOLF CITY, when the band (it seems) cut down the extra folks and in many ways lost its "freedom", though they were still really good with outstanding pieces. All the way to VIVE LA TRANCE, this band was the king and queen of all lyrics with some amazing images handled beautifully, including the use of sound effects ... and then if it is not enough, their free form (MM soundtrack on DOTL), is one of the best improvisations EVER done on record ... it's beauty and touch, specially Lothar Meid, is incredible and sadly not "listenable" (per PA user a while back!!!), because it is not a song and has no lyrics! The band was also very with it in many ways ... "Apocaliptyc Bore" is a serious attack on what went wrong with all the dope ... kids had taken all the skybites ... and that caused them all to leave and disappear ... and all the band can say is ... it's OK ... it wasn't ... left a massive hole behind it all! The other piece in the same album, is "Mozambique" that has been banned from the political/war threads on PA by one person ... I'm not sure he would ever know what happened to so many blacks (not to mention slavery!!!), in that country and others in Africa. Best never to look at it, because it is not only ugly, it is bloody! Makes this band way up and above a lot others, however, sadly it wasn't until #NADA MOONSHINE NUMBER that the band would put together another strong and powerful album, and go out with a huge finger ... "divine slime" ... and we just ignore it all! The irony is incredible and astounding! CLUSTER - Fits in with the NEU folks more or less ... generally instrumental stuff based on the beat. Very nice though, and it was a good background for a lot of "krautrock", specially the vein that Damo Suzuki went on to do for a long time. GURU GURU - A special band, however, I should probably say ... a special drummer, because the band could not keep itself together and had so many incarnations, but I don't think that Mani gave a damn. He could drum with them all and the sky and the moon, naked or not! The first three albums (and one live one) were incredibly strong with Ax Gernrich and an incredible fire storm of guitar gymnastics in sound and noise ... to create a very neat and far out bunch of pieces. Several of them are still in GG's menu when they can play these days, Mani's health not with standing. After that the 4th album had a John McLaughlin styled guitarist and the album had a few really far out pieces, that were not always a part of the GG's listings in the live albums ... sadly because both long pieces in that album are outstanding! After that, there is always something nice about it, but the band (in my ear) had become a KRAAN sister band, and while there were nice things, it was not anywhere near the importance and bauty of their early stuff ... I guess that Mani not having fun with getting nekkid all the time anywhere, probably took its toll once he got married? Still a lot of nice stuff, but not as great and far out as the early material some of which I like to say that this was the best Jimi Hendrix that no one on PA will ever hear!
Edited by moshkito - November 07 2024 at 07:42 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
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Posted: November 07 2024 at 06:47 |
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Hi, Interesting ... considering that the scene was not defined in a scientific way at all, makes the choice a bit off key for me. The early days of "krautrock" was about exploration and creativity, and there really was not a lot of "scientific" ideas in it at all ... see the Damo Suzuki special to get a better idea, because no one reflected the life of "krautrock" more, and better, than he did, and he took it with him ... no one could take it away from him. But the thing to remember is that this was not a music scene alone, but also a film and literature scene, although in a place like this, many folks will gladly ignore all that, and not believe it. One example ... see if you can find a difference between Damo and Klaus Kinski ... you can see KK in Werner Herzog's special ... and how crazy he could be when he just went out in his character. It's something that acting in theater and film love to see, but they dislike it, because it tears away at all its foundations in Stanislavski ... as a method for acting, which is still used these days in many colleges and universities ... I should say "mis-use" since these institutions are more into TV acting than they are into the discipline itself. Kinda weird to see you state that "listen in a more scientific way" ... for something that is totally against the "science" of any of the arts ... I guess that anyone involved was stupid, and even Peter Handke's word plays were just a bunch of idiocies ... and all that improvisation was just stupidity and lack of knowledge about music ... like there was nothing else existent beyond the staff and notes! Just such a scary thought!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Mellotron Storm
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Posted: November 06 2024 at 20:48 |
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Voted Amon Duul II, Gila and Agitation Free. With those three bands I have favourite pairs. I've just changed my mind too many times, so I'm listing two. Yeti and Tanz Der Lemminge, Malesche and 2, Free electric Sound and Night Works. Although with Agitation Free I'm so into their live stuff as well.
Personally for me the most underrated is Eiliff. It wasn't until I heard their archival live stuff that they clicked, and I find those far superior to their studio albums. I'm more into the heavy psychedelic aspect of Krautrock but love how trippy and uplifting Agitation Free is. Can deserves a mention of course along with Ash Ra Tempel but loads of great bands here. Lastly Alcatraz has this random Jazz/Fusion tune on that album that I'm surprised NUCLEUS didn't sue them over. Same song pretty much, especially the main melody. |
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
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David_D
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Posted: November 06 2024 at 17:42 |
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Arts and science are not an easy combination, even I won't say that it's all subjective, or that science is objective for that sake. Edited by David_D - November 06 2024 at 17:44 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: November 06 2024 at 15:55 |
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I'm not a an expert of krautrock. My opinion about the bands I know isnt definitive, I should relisten to them in a more scientific way. I just know Can, Faust, Ash Ra Tempel, Neu!, Popol Vuh, Amon Duull I and II, Cluster, Guru Guru. Voted for Faust (my fave), Popol Vuh and Amon Duul II. In my opinion Faust are underrated. I've done this poll to study the situation and find some band to discover.
Edited by jamesbaldwin - November 06 2024 at 15:59 |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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David_D
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Posted: November 06 2024 at 10:51 |
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Voted only though for Agitation Free, and Gila whose debut I may find underrated in general, even it's quite high-rated on PA.
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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dr wu23
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Posted: November 06 2024 at 10:41 |
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Amon Duul 2
Agitation Free Brainticket (not sure if they are underated but I enjoy their first 3 lps)
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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Octopus II
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Posted: November 06 2024 at 09:21 |
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Can
Amon Duul II Neu! |
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Olape
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Posted: November 06 2024 at 09:19 |
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My thoughts too: Can - Ege Bamyasi ADII - Wolf City Agitation Free - Malesch Other favs not on the list: Frumpy, Orange Peel and Kraan. Edited by Olape - November 06 2024 at 09:38 |
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moshkito
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Posted: November 06 2024 at 07:41 |
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Hi,
Glad to see the appreciation for AD2 and Can ... they deserve the credit and then some ... although I would not leave behind that group of folks that ended up making Michael Rother and some others the real heart and soul of what became "krautrock" ... catch the show for Jaki Liebezeit and you will see "krautrock" come alive when Michael Rother joins them for an incredible piece that even Damo was superlative. About the lyrics ... kinda sad to see that written about the lyrics ... if we take the anti-west attitude that Holger Czukay mentioned many times, you would think that the lyrics would also be done up likewise, thus, them not "making sense" is an important part of the music and scene, so we don't get attached to some kind of idea or symbology about anything ... and this is important, though we have a tendency to think that "meaning" is important ... and quite often, in terms of the arts ... IT IS NOT! ... as it tends to take apart the actual event/experience for the artist or the piece. It's like folks thinking they can figure out Jon Anderson, and he jokes, that actually it was about his breakfast ... !!! Which makes more sense than not!!! (Good thing that the poster has never read, or heard one of Peter Handke's plays at the time !!! His notion would be destroyed senselessly!) ( ... ohh and that Damo ... inventing lyrics and sounds ... !!!) Lyrics, have become the lazy way in rock music ... by supposedly telling you what the song is about ... you know what is weird is that for nearly 500 plus years, lyrics have not been the foreward or forerunner of most music, but the Internet audience complaining about it ... is ... I guess a comment about not appreciating the music, because you gotta be told what it is about? Krazy!!! However the lyrics thing died out around 1974 or so, and if we take AD2 as an example, after "Apocalyptic Bore" ... it literally said ... it didn't matter any more ... it was OK ... but we remember the ending guitar/violin duet ... but hate to show it, because the lyrics and the song are way out there! And if you want meaning ... there is no better literature than that in one song! .... (until you go to figure out why the Mona Lisa has a bird brain!!!) (... and the kids had taken all the skybites ... ) Side Note: Remember that almost all folks in the early "krautrock" days, were sons and daughters of WW2 citizens, and many of them had to be re-used for educational purposes because the teaching/learning element of things was just about wiped out ... (Edgar Froese mentions it in a special) ... and you know that since the 1930's or so, Germany was under a system that "told" folks what to believe and do ... meaning that if there were to be lyrics, they would be supporting the military ideals. Thus, the new "scene" all of a sudden, taking on a counter idea to "meaning" makes a lot of sense ... something that we have a hard time with, but in my book, and history (parents involved in WW2 in Portugal) dealing with ... Both my parents never said a thing, good or bad, likely because they were threatened by the government ... and likely more than once ... so, all of a sudden, odd lyrics with "no meaning" is the right thing to do ... although not many other folks in Europe took up the "no meaning" as well as the early "krautrock" did, and then folks like Samuel Beckett with his famous play, which suggests there were STILL some things to worry about.
Edited by moshkito - November 06 2024 at 12:25 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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David_D
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Posted: November 06 2024 at 05:57 |
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What I can tell here is that I'm fond / very fond of these albums: Can - Tago Mago, Ege Bamyasi, Future Days Amon Düül II - Yeti, Wolf City Ash Ra Tempel - s/t Faust - IV Neu! - s/t Gila - s/t Agitation Free - Malesch Guru Guru - Hinter |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Lewian wrote: