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The 1970s: counterculture, music, peace & struggle

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    Posted: November 30 2024 at 10:57
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

I've been to Christiania seven or eight years ago, and I found out that actually cannabis dealing is officially prohibited, but inside, little groups are formed, here and there, around a person handling something ... and you can easily understand what's going on. 

Selling cannabis has always been a part of Christiania, but Christiania has also always and to this day been about much else.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2024 at 17:48
I've been to Christiania seven or eight years ago, and I found out that actually cannabis dealing is officially prohibited, but inside, little groups are formed, here and there, around a person handling something ... and you can easily understand what's going on. 

I drunk a hot organic raspberry herbal tea in one of the bars. It was the middle of winter, the first week of January, and it was about minus ten degrees in the evening. 

I thank moshkito and David for the contributions, I will come back to comment more precisely.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2024 at 02:45

^ But okay, I don't know how many of them were genuine hippies.

Also, if to make it more serious, being teenager in Warsaw in the early '70s wasn't definitely like in the Western '50s. There was quite a lot of different kind of influence from the Western '60s, not least from the Beatles, and musically speaking, quite a few teenagers had not so little knowledge of the most popular Western Rock bands.

There was also quite a revolt in '68, reaction to which actually determined much why my parents and my big sister decided to leave Poland.


Edited by David_D - November 30 2024 at 06:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2024 at 17:15

^ I remember very well my very first meeting with the hippies, as it was such a big cultural shock to me. It was summer 1972, I just turned 15, and my family had just arrived to Denmark from Poland. The first couple of days, we stayed at a hotel in Copenhagen very close to the central park, and the very first day, my brother and I went for a walk in the park. So there we came with our very short hair and cloth more or less like from the '50s, and even we had lived in Warsaw, we certainly hadn't seen anything like the Western hippies before. But there were they, lying in very large number around on the lawns close to each other, with their hair as long as down to the shoulders, and guys and girls were wearing very much the same cloth, so we hardly could see which were which - while they hugged and kissed quite a lot each other. 

Yeah, the shock was total, and what did I do? I didn't get any hair cut the whole first year, and my hair got like a big bird's nest, as it was rather curly and airy. LOL


Edited by David_D - November 29 2024 at 03:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2024 at 12:33

I just listened to Jesus Christ Superstar, such a great album, and it made me think of a lot of things. The one being, how a big ethical revolution Christianity was comparing to the eye-for-an-eye ethics of Judaism, and its idea of the chosen people which I better not to tell how I will characterize; for not to talk about the really horrible stories of genocide after genocide in the first half of The Old Testament which are said to have happened with the help of ("the Jewish") God.
But when talking about JCS, I see it tremendously well reflecting maybe the very core of the flower power movement (the hippies) and its ideology, which I think of as being much rooted in Christianity's and Buddhism's ethics of universal charity and non-violence, and of which I see Jesus as being the most important symbol.
And what does it exactly have to do with the 1970s counterculture? Well, I find this counterculture to consist of two rather different movements. The first one being the hippies, which was of course strongest in the second half of the '60s but still rather significant in at least the first half of the '70s, and the second one the political left-wing rooted in Marxism.


Edited by David_D - November 30 2024 at 09:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2024 at 07:38

I guess that the most significant single expression of the Danish counterculture in the 1970s was establishment of Christiania. Here's something about it as it's written by Wikipedia.

"
Freetown Christiania (DanishFristaden Christiania), also known as Christiania or simply Staden, is an intentional community and commune in the Christianshavn neighbourhood of the Danish capital city of Copenhagen. It began in 1971 as a squatted military base.
....................
On 26 September 1971, Christiania was declared open by Jacob Ludvigsen, a well-known provo and journalist who published a magazine called Hovedbladet ('The main paper'), which was intended for and successfully distributed to mostly young people. In the paper, Ludvigsen wrote an article in which he and five others explored what he termed 'The Forbidden City of the Military'. The article widely announced the proclamation of the free town, and among other things he wrote the following under the headline "Civilians conquered the 'forbidden city' of the military"."

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania# )

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2024 at 06:33
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

^The English lyrics to that song by PFM are different than the Italian; same music, but the song "Just Look Away" is about a street musician playing his violin and being ignored by all the people hurrying by him.....

Hi,

This is almost always an issue with translations since some of the bits and pieces would be particular to one area and not necessarily translate well to another. This was a HUGE issue in the translation of a lot of my own father's poetry into other languages, specially English ... all of a sudden, all of it became a sort of political activism, and not the real poem at all ... to be honest ... IT WAS DISGUSTING!

According to Pasolini, Italy had some serious political/philosophical problems in the country and they (usually) involved the north against the south (so to speak), but in general, anything was an excuse to say something good or bad about the other!

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Some of the English lyrics by PFM were written/translated by Peter Sinfield. He was granted some "creative freedom" by the band.

Still, as the example above, his translations were not that good ... and I have to re-read them now to see what other comments I can add/subtract ... but, again, the majority of translations are a serious issue in any language, and in the case of this political/social situation, it will suffer, and outsiders not exactly a part of it all will not interpret things better than otherwise.

This was a horrible issue in one story from my dad that was not political at all ... let's say that it fits well in a slightly older child story ... and the character found a piece of material on the road that was red, and put it on his shoulder ... and guess what ... the translation immediately made that a "symbol" against the authorities ... it killed the poem for me ... that had a nice, quiet, pastoral innocence (I really thought that was the idea behind the story, btw!!!), that all of a sudden was distorted viciously in my imagination ... felt like we're draining the children, kind of thing ... a la "City of Lost Children".

SIDE NOTE:
The harder part, and worst, is that we don't even care to understand or relate to the actual lyrics. If we take a year worth of news from London, 6 months before and 6 months after the release of ITCOTCK ... and then put that against the lyrics, you will find that many of them are very much on topic with some of the issues in that generation, up to and including the political/social situations, that in America were severely thrashed by the media via the White House (gotta make sure they don't know anything about VietNam ... ) ... to the point of thinking that all youngsters, EVEN listening to some of that music, were dirty, ugly and anti-American!!!!!  Thus, even English on English can not even get some respect and attention!!!

And guess what? ... this is still prevalent in America today! And a huge part why the "news", local or otherwise, are completely ignored because of the Internet.

My main concern here, is that because of the words, a lot of the artistic material is ignored ... and not given proper credit and attention ... thus America will only recognize "art" when it sells for $1 million in NY ... and the rest? Toilet Poopoo!

SIDE NOTE 2: When the family went to Brazil in 1959, it might be thought of as dad wishing to leave his high level military standard for literature, as he was already fairly well known in the area of film reviews and literary reviews and translations of many books by that time. What we don't know is how much of it was a possible government threat against his family ... and pretty much all of the work after 1959, did not have political/social implications so visible at all ... and both parents NEVER EVER said anything about it ... and 4 years after dad passed away, mom was still being investigated in Santa Barbara!!!!! Probably due to stuff she was publishing, although most of it was literary minded and not political/social topics as far as I know. I have never seen a listing of the stuff she published at all, after dad passed away. But it's really hard to not think there was something to it, specially as the neighbor country had set out many years before to snuff out a lot of artists, writers, painters and others ... for political reasons, and many of them ran off to France, specially, and the rest of Europe to get away from the Generalissimo.


Edited by moshkito - November 21 2024 at 06:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2024 at 23:31
Some of the English lyrics by PFM were written/translated by Peter Sinfield. He was granted some "creative freedom" by the band.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 19:14
^The English lyrics to that song by PFM are different than the Italian; same music, but the song "Just Look Away" is about a street musician playing his violin and being ignored by all the people hurrying by him.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2024 at 17:23
FABRIZIO DE ANDRE' - STORIA DI UN IMPIEGATO

this album, published in 1973, explains what the atmosphere was like in Italy at that time

Read the wonderful review by Octopus-4

Even if this is not my favorite De Andre' album, I can't believe that it still has no reviews. It was released in 1973, during one of the worst periods of the Italian political history, just after a coup attempt organized by the CIA and after a number of terrorist attacks by the neo-fascists who caused huge number of deaths for years until the bigger one at Bologna's train station on August 2nd 1980. In the same period there were riots, clashes between police and left winged protesters, something that had its roots in the Berkeley riot in 1966 where the US police killed some students but had its official start in France on May 1968, with the movement lead by Cohn-Bendit.

This is the story. Fabrizio De Andre' writes a concept album about the 1968 French movement and how the middle class (the "Impiegato") reacted to it. Of course lyrics are often more important than music, even if Fabrizio was a classical trained guitarist.

"Introduzione"(Intro) takes less than two minutes. After a quite proggy instrumental part, Voice and classical guitar with just few synth behind says clearly what the album is about. "They had enough time, also for jail. Outside the same rage, the sane Spring were waiting for them". The second track, one of the most known of this album, starts immediately.

"Canzone del Maggio"(Song about May) is obviously referred to the rebellion in France on My '68. It's one of the protesters telling to the middle class "Even though you actually thought to be absolved, You were completely involved". It means that in front of a rebellion you are part of what happens regardless the side you decide to be on. The message is quite similar to the trade unions anthem written by Woody Guthrie: "Which Side Are You On". It also mentions things like the biased media coverage, something that doesn't seem to be different today, if not worsened. Musically speaking it has a little Country-rock flavor, do to the finger-picking and the harmonica, but the baritonal voice of Fabrizio has a particular tone.

"La Bomba In Testa" reprises the melody and the chord progression of the Intro. It tells the story of an anarchist who joines the cause, leaving his job and his good sentiments to become a "warrior". The song speaks of a bomb, but it's probably referring to the clashes at the Sorbona University. The last verse tells about "placing a bomb at a masked dance, and "Al Ballo Mascherato (To TheMask Dance)" is the following song. Totally different from the previous from a musical point of view, has a sort of fun feeling. Even if a bomb is about to explode, the participants are happily dancing. Still flavored by a Country feeling it's driven by the bass with the guitar sounding as much as possible like a fiddle.

"Sogno Numero Due(Dream #2)" is a prog song. It's uptime with a blown flute that reminds to "Concerto Grosso" by New Trolls more than to Ian Anderson. It explains what the previous song is really about. It this is the Dream #2, the Mask Dance is the dream #1. The anarchist dreams to put a bomb in a gala full of "celebrities". This second dream is about putting the judge, and the law itself, under trial. Making justice of the corrupt society of that time. If only he could have imagined how we would have ended to nowadays... Anyway, after the jazzy flute section there's a speech part backed by a percussive bass. This is the verse. The chorus is te instrumental part driven by the flute.

"La Canzone Del Padre (The Song Of The Father)" is folky and on the chord progressions more familiar to the listeners of De Andre'. It's very similar to the kind of songs of "La Buona Novella". It's not very easy to interpret because it's a true poetry. In the dream, the protagonist takes the place of his father dead in the bombing of the previous dream.

"Il Bombarolo(The bomber)" in now awake. After three dreams he decides to place a real bomb. He wants to make it explode in front of the parliament but by mistake it destroys only a newspapers kiosk. He is then arrested and jailed. The act is completely useless. Musically it's a nice folk tune with some unexpected passage.

Now what I think is the best song of the whole album: "Verranno a Chiederti del Nostro Amore(They'll come to ask you about our love)". It's a slow waltz. The bomber talks to his wife, who is now the wife of a jailed terrorist and is persecuted by the media. This is one of the best songs by De Andre' in terms of melody and chords progression. One of my favorites at least.

Finally, from the prison, the bomber has the time to rethink to his errors: the individual act has no meaning as a revolution must be carried on by the people. "Nella mia ora di liberta'(In my hour of freedom)" he decided to give up to that hour because he doesn't want to share it with the cops. In the end he has done a mistake, but his reasons were right. It's a slow finger-picking, again with a country-rock arrangement but with a interludes with a RPI flavor.

Not the best album by De Andre' but still an excellent one. Full of poetry as usual.

Somebody once said "Faber is the Italian Bob Dylan". He was replied: "Wrong. Bob Dylan is the American De Andre'".



Edited by jamesbaldwin - November 14 2024 at 17:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2024 at 15:51
‘Bombs go off in the squares and these people go around singing Sweetest Mary [Dolcissima Maria]? Are you kidding me?’

With these laconic words, Area's Patrizio Fariselli not only hinted at what he thought of Pfm's new album [Isola di Niente], but also highlighted between the lines the musical divide that had been increasingly emerging since 1974: politicised experimental avant-garde on the one hand and a progressive stylistic softening on the other.

(Taken from this wonderful blog about Prog and counterculture: https://classikrock.blogspot.com/2009/09/pfm-lisola-di-niente-1974.html)

In 1974 in Italy there was a referendum in which Catholics (Christian Democrats) and neo-fascists (Social Movement) wanted to abolish the divorce law. The referendum saw the left win: divorce remained the law. 

In reaction to this (but not only to this, to a lot of things), a civil war climate broke out in Italy.

Deviated sectors of the secret services with black terrorism attempted to organise a coup d'état, which failed. They set off two bombs, one in the central square of Brescia (8 dead and a hundred injured), a town near Milan, the other on a train (12 dead and fifty injured).

For left-wing armed struggle groups, these bombs, reminiscent of those of 1969, are a sign that the fascists are trying to seize power.
We are in civil war, according to many.
From 1974 onwards, the left-wing armed struggle will move from demonstration operations with limited vioence to kidnappings and voluntary killings, i.e. political assassinations.

This is the sense of the phrase of Fariselli, the main composer of Area's music.
(In my opinion, ‘Dolcissima Maria’ is really one of the songs with lyrics and music that in Italy were only sung by the corny, cloying, hyperglycemic Sanremo festival singers such as I Ricchi e i Poveri: a real insult to left-wing prog- but Pfm was now aiming at the American market, they had betrayed Italian movementist prog)




Edited by jamesbaldwin - November 10 2024 at 16:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2024 at 14:57
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

But honestly, I would've actually much preferred Triumvirat's vocal department had it been sung in native German. At least during the Helmut Köllen era. Same for Eloy. :v I have no idea why it was so embarrassing for German vocalists to sing in their mother tongue.

Hi,

I think this is a factor of the biggest place where things can sell, and that would be the United States, and then Great Britain, and both countries catered big time to the economic side of the music, something that many other countries did not do well. I suppose Italy and France are ... a bit weird in this department ... and their own languages seemed to be way more important than the English versions ... Ange never did anything in English that I can recall. I think that PFM hurt itself when it felt is had to do English so it could sell in America ... and surprise ... the imports did better when one considers all the years in between. Italy, however, had a massive history of music via opera like no one else ... so hearing things in Italian was never a surprise, but hearing them done in English was!!!

The USA, has an issue with foreign languages, and it took several artists in the 70's take that one ... remember Linda Ronstadt that went full Spanish ... and it not only sold but became well known ... she went after the Hispanic folks in the South and Southwest ... the record company was not happy, but they lost that battle when things sold ... and since then, the majority of the Latino/Hispanic folks have enjoyed a fairly good amount of sales. And, at the time, you did not hear any of them on the FM Radio, or on regular AM radio ... 

The bad attitude was visible during the Space Pirate Radio days ... but Guy had a funny way of getting people to not worry about the language issues ... it's like watching a Fellini movie without the subtitles ...  and a lot of fans enjoyed that kind of humor and then the bands being played. I don't think there was a single album, by PFM, Banco, Le Orme, Ange, AD2 (and just about all Krock folks), Granada, Mona Lisa, Sadistic Mika Band, and so many others that it would be nearly impossible for me to list ... that did a lot of their work in their own language ... and the kicker of it all was when the English version of Felona and Serona did not sell as much as the original ... which was an "import" that was really big and is still a favored album.

I think the German thing, could have roots to WW2 ... and it might have been better to leave it behind ... and of course, most of the schlagger was in German, and we know via Guru Guru ... that the new God of music was rock music, not the stuff without the feedback! That song, in TANGO FANGO is really important in its incredible levels of satire ... but it would be good for us to remember that in those days, the Short Wave Radio was massive all over Europe blasting the other side with Beatles and a lot of rock music which might have been the greatest inspiration for the younger generation being forced to eat schlagger. At that point, I imagine that German is not at all favored ... but that's just a thought.


Edited by moshkito - November 10 2024 at 14:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2024 at 11:26
Quote Imagine if Helmut Koellen had sung in German, only, the success Triumvirat had wouldn't have been....
Triumvirat is perhaps a bit of an exception. But, Le Orme got away with Italian lyrics and that didn't handicap their chance to be successful. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And then you have "Germanic" bands like Banzaï (Flanders/Belgium), Kyrie Eleison (Austria) and Neuschwanstein (Germany). All of them featured only English language vocals. And they did not get commercially successful at all!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2024 at 09:41
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

But honestly, I would've actually much prefered Triumvirat's vocal department had it been sung in native German. At least during the Helmut Köllen era. Same for Eloy. :v I have no idea why it was so embarrassing for German vocalists to sing in their mother tongue.
I believe, as has been pointed out, that it wasn't so much as being embarrassed, but in order for a group to stand a chance at being known, internationally, it was an obvious good move to sing in English. Imagine if Helmut Koellen had sung in German, only, the success Triumvirat had wouldn't have been....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2024 at 09:08
But honestly, I would've actually much prefered Triumvirat's vocal department had it been sung in native German. At least during the Helmut Köllen era. Same for Eloy. :v I have no idea why it was so embarrassing for German vocalists to sing in their mother tongue.

Edited by Hrychu - November 10 2024 at 09:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2024 at 08:08
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

...
An important point you bring up; Triumvirat are a prime example; they were ignored by the German press pretty well completely at first, then they went to America and things really picked up for them, saleswise, what with a couple of albums in the Top 50 and Top 30 charts, respectively, and then, all of a sudden, Germany was paying attention, and wanting interviews with the band, etc. ....$$$$......

Hi,

Guy Guden, of Space Pirate Radio, likely is the one that deserves the most praise for all this ... I had been, for several years (we were roommates then), a collector of all things HARVEST, and already had almost all of the folks listed in the Hipgnosis Cereal Box inner sleeve, with the bands listed as "ingredients". And just right after SPR got on the air full time (Jan 27th 1974), a lot of Harvest stuff showed up ... Triumvirat and Kayak and Eloy ... and I went on the lam looking for more and found other things ... Cherubin, Tanned Leather and Uno, for example, and I'm not sure I found any more after that.

All of these got airplay on Guy's show, be it the special Sunday Night SPR (all imports then, no American stuff), or any other night time that he was on the air, which was still very heavy on the Europeans, unlike the rest of the station.

BTW, it was the Album Cover Book, and the Hipgnosis Book that helped chase down a lot of these things, and there were STILL a lot of things I never really listened to or got a good feel on. But I think we nailed down the best and most important work around ... and I have examples that it was played! Something, that sadly, someone specified that I was just inventing crap for the sake of a post. I can't even reply to that ... and that poster will need to live with his ideas of "fake" out there ... can't even tell the truth from a lie, kind of thing!

In general, I chased down anything Roger Dean or Harvest. I did drop off Roger Dean quickly even though the art work was so pretty ... but it had to substance to the music itself. Hipgnosis, kinda came off as an EDITORIAL for the whole thing, which made easier to understand and get ... you kinda knew that you were on the same wavelength as the band and the art around it ... and this became even better and more visible with 10CC later. ... but Mandy was dead!


Edited by moshkito - November 10 2024 at 08:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2024 at 07:38
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

[quote]
...
It's funny that even though Germany also had a rich classical tradition (W.A. Mozart, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe et al.), the prog rock bands ditched all this shіt, and instead chose to poorly disguise themselves as Englishmen (eg. Triumvirat, Sirius, Tritonus...). xD In hindsight, I find it quite laughable.

Hi,

If you see the extended krautrock special, (the one with 6 parts -- the 6th is busted up because of the mention of David Bowie) ... Edgar Froese has some choice words on this ... it was intentional and a way to define something new for themselves and each other ... and only Holger and the Can website ever really mentioned the "anti-western" culture ideas .... something new and exciting ... which for the new generation was much more important than the old line of the arts ... I don't think that they were exactly thought of as bad, but the time had come for something else ... and sometimes, you have to let mom and dad go so you can grow up and be yourself ... it's rather simple, and I think that Edgar was right about this ... big time!

I don't think that the Germans disguised themselves as anything but themselves (krautrock would not have developed without it !!!!), however, we all know and there is a massive history of it, that the media and the record companies INTENTIONALLY ignored the majority of the new music, until ... you got it ... all of a sudden it is selling big time in France, England and many other countries, and at that point the German companies watch their eyes light up ... money going away ... can't have that!

In my book the only struggle to it all, was the media associating everything with VietNam and other political issues, and in the case of American media making sure that they made all the Western Culture scenes, dirty and ugly and smelly ... even though some bands are appreciated these days, about the only ones that survived it, were the original Beat Poets ... but, for them, it appeared to not have quite a political point, as much as an individual and fun/party thing, complete with a colorful bus ... without which we probably would have ignored the whole thing ... how bizarre that notion seems to us all that it might not have gone any further?
An important point you bring up; Triumvirat are a prime example; they were ignored by the German press pretty well completely at first, then they went to America and things really picked up for them, saleswise, what with a couple of albums in the Top 50 and Top 30 charts, respectively, and then, all of a sudden, Germany was paying attention, and wanting interviews with the band, etc. ....$$$$......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2024 at 05:47
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Again, it's a question of the used definition of "the political", but anyway, in my opinion and as for instance Edward Macan more or less documents it in his Rocking the Classics, English Prog was born very much out of the '60s counterculture movement and was in many ways in opposition to the mainstream culture and the social order.

I havent read Rocking The Classics.
......................

I can very much recommend this book as still the main study of the English Progressive Rock in the 1970s.

                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2024 at 09:09
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

[quote]Guess Triumvirat isn't the perfect example. My point is that a lot of non-Krautrock related 70's (West) German prog rock acts tried to mask their German-ness. They would sing only in English, make no references to the German art/culture, avoid Germany-specific social commentary like a plague and so on. The Italians were much more open about their own history, politics and nationality.


Hi,

I'm not going to disagree on this at all ... however, I think that when the market started appearing in Germany (opening up to locals) things changed ... when Harvest came along and offered to release an album or two, Triumvirate would likely not have a choice to do these in English or not ... so it could sell in other places as well ... I would not consider that "masking" much, but a factor of the time and place. There are a couple of other releases by Harvest that also sang in English ... but then, you can look at Scorpions first album and they were singing in English, which means they knew where they could sell their stuff and singing in German was limiting their audience.

IN this specific situation, I do not look at things as krautrock or not, since they are all pretty much in the same situation ... simply trying to sell some things and make a go of it. AD2 sang a lot in English, but did not shy away from using German when it seemed to make sense and it could be consider a satire, if not something else.

BTW, the Germans could not exactly discuss history, politics and nationality at the time ... it was a part of their "restoration" and one of the conditions for many previous teachers in the old regime to be able to be employed and do some good ... they had to remain neutral, and this was rather clear in most "krautrock" areas, which at least one book defines 5 or 6 separate areas, all with very different agendas and ideas, that helped create a lot of music, very different ... and in some ways a bit of politics did make it through even if disguised a bit ... again, in my book, and the other huge one, to consider one band this and the other band from Munich something else, is a bit weird ... still the same country, but their work is vastly different, even more so on folks from Berlin.

The very early issues of EUROCK  shows the beginnings, of this era faithfully and with a lot of things that did not come to be known ... there was a lot of experimentation and things done, and I don't know if it fits properly, the discussion it is this or not ... and take away the freedom that a lot of that music showed us could take place ... even in PAm we do not believe that this can happen, EVER, again. We dismiss art left and right, and we all know that these things rarely happen on their own by accident.


Edited by moshkito - November 09 2024 at 09:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2024 at 06:15
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Why was it in Italy, unlike in home country England, that Pawn Hearts was so successful?
Pawn Hearts, with its intricate songs peppered with Peter Hammill's crazy and dramatical singing, was a very appealing record for the then-Italian audiences looking for something beyond typical rock. The appreciation for intellectualism and artistic expression in Italy greatly influenced the reception of Van der Graaf Generator. The band's philosophical and existential lyrical themes struck a chord with Italian fans. In England, the Van der Graaf Generator has been overshadowed by both those acts from more commercially successful genres and by progressive rock bands that were easier to listen to.

Also, unlike British radio, which primarily focused on commercial hit singles, Italian radio frequently featured full albums or longer tracks. This approach enabled progressive bands like Van der Graaf Generator to reach wider audiences by highlighting their artistic qualities rather than solely their commercial appeal.

Rock concerts in Italy, especially those highlighting experimentalism, would become shared experiences where bonds between fans and bands alike were forged through their mutual appreciation of complex musical stories. The live performances of Van der Graaf Generator utterly fascinated such an Italian audience back then.

VdGG toured Italy when most British bands were either absent from Italy or orientated towards other markets like the U.S. It thus allowed them to secure a more dedicated audience there than they managed to achieve in England, where their concerts were emotionally not so participatory. In Italy, the concerts of the bands like VdGG evolved into collective events that strengthened the bond between fans and artists and among fans themselves.

Last but not least, Italy had its underground music scene back in the late sixties, which prepared both the audience and critics for the arrival of things like progressive rock and bands like Van der Graaf Generator. One just has to listen to this 18-minute avant-rock song by the band Le Stelle di Mario Schifano, actually the entire A-side of their originally red-coloured vinyl LP, released in 1967.

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