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Is Prog really a genre?

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WeepingElf View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeepingElf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Prog really a genre?
    Posted: March 03 2024 at 07:16
To contribute my own €0.02 to this eternal discussion, I'd say that prog is a genre, as it has its characteristic conventions, as to song structure (transcending the "radio single" format), compositional and lyrical sophistication all the way to concept albums and beyond (there are cycles of concept albums and even concept bands) and the like. Yet, it is a very wide and diverse genre with very different styles (compare Yes and Dream Theater: different styles, same genre), and as always with genres, the boundaries are fuzzy and nebulous. I have come across the term "meta-genre" somewhere, I don't know where though, and that may fit here.

At any rate, prog is not the same as music that is literally progressive, as a band that does nothing else than what the classic prog bands of the '70s do wouldn't be very progressive, but definitely within the prog genre. (At least here in Germany, we call that thing "retro-prog", which sums up its paradoxical nature aptly, I'd say.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2024 at 02:14
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Valdez1 Valdez1 wrote:

YES... Prog is a genre... And its the only genre to have hundreds of sub-genres following behind it, only because it is so interesting and exploratory.  Thats a good thing.  All praise King Prog & his subjects.
"hundreds of sub-genres" is definitely an exaggeration, but a lot of sub-genres, I will call "PA Prog". Wink
There are even more prog subgenre names elsewhere. 
But you surely like to bash PA it seems. 

Just a tongue-in-cheek observation on basis of all my "Prog" experience and musical knowledge, and you asked me even earlier in this thread about my opinion concerning PA. 
Besides that, all talk about the Prog term without describing its specific use is in my opinion too abstract and rather meaningless.

Also, please, keep away from personal comments.

You have NEVER explained what is wrong with the way PA defines prog/progressive rock, have you read the definitions and the prog rock guides from the main page? The prog subgenres pages? I'm not convinced you did, because otherwise we would get an explanation of what is wrong with them, wouldn't we?! Confused

What's a personal comment? Disagreeing with someone and a personal attack are not the same thing. 
You keep complaining and never tell the reason why. Confused



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2024 at 01:54
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Valdez1 Valdez1 wrote:

YES... Prog is a genre... And its the only genre to have hundreds of sub-genres following behind it, only because it is so interesting and exploratory.  Thats a good thing.  All praise King Prog & his subjects.
"hundreds of sub-genres" is definitely an exaggeration, but a lot of sub-genres, I will call "PA Prog". Wink
There are even more prog subgenre names elsewhere. 
But you surely like to bash PA it seems. 

Just a tongue-in-cheek observation on basis of all my "Prog" experience and musical knowledge, and you asked me even earlier in this thread about my opinion concerning PA. 
Besides that, all talk about the Prog term without describing its specific use is in my opinion too abstract and rather meaningless.

Also, please, keep away from personal comments.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2024 at 05:55
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Valdez1 Valdez1 wrote:

YES... Prog is a genre... And its the only genre to have hundreds of sub-genres following behind it, only because it is so interesting and exploratory.  Thats a good thing.  All praise King Prog & his subjects.

"hundreds of sub-genres" is definitely an exaggeration, but a lot of sub-genres, I will call "PA Prog". Wink


There are even more prog subgenre names elsewhere. 
But you surely like to bash PA it seems. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2024 at 05:49
Originally posted by Valdez1 Valdez1 wrote:

YES... Prog is a genre... And its the only genre to have hundreds of sub-genres following behind it, only because it is so interesting and exploratory.  Thats a good thing.  All praise King Prog & his subjects.

"hundreds of sub-genres" is definitely an exaggeration, but a lot of sub-genres, I will call "PA Prog". Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2024 at 05:07
I would say that Prog is both a genre and a subgenre and also a loose term/ category for music of great diversity, and the amount of diversity will vary from person to person. Prog can be such a nebulous term and such an indistinct classification. The amorphous qualities fit rock without boundaries, rock without limits, but it can take in non-rock music too. In a way I have thought of Prog as ageneric, genre-defying as well as genre-bending music, and also it can be a clearer genre of a more distinct style with distinct attributes. Prog to me is a spectrum, diverse. I tend not to associate my interests with the Prog term much, and more often would use the terms art, artsy, experimental or quirky for what I gravitate towards, much of which might be classified by people as Prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2024 at 03:02
Zappa and The Beatles were probably the biggest influences on progressive musicians but neither was really 'prog' as said. Which comes back to the main problem, is it down to attitude or creating a certain style. I'm not convinced it can be both at the same time. It's easily forgotten that plenty of critics were already becoming weary of a lot of prog circa 1972. It wasn't until 1977 that the walls were torn down though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2024 at 01:00
^ I never considered Zappa to be "Prog". Zappa was always in a league of his own. One of my top 10 favorite musicians of all time, and certainly deserving to be listed here, but he's not "Prog" as in "Progressive Rock" as it was defined after the classic prog releases of the early 70s.

Zappa and "Prog" have in common the progressive approach to writing, composing and performing music. So "Prog", as the word is used today, can mean both a (relatively narrow) sub genre of Rock music (think CttE/SEbtP), a wider sub genre encompassing everything from KC to Tangerine Dream, or a general attitude.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2024 at 23:00
I Admit my offhand exaggeration. Hundreds is out of line. Rock may have up to a hundred sub genres... I don't know, Some of it is subjective. Whatever became of Math Rock?  Is that something gleaned from Discipline era Crimson? Is Zappa Avant Prog? Sun Ra Progressive Jazz? or Avant Jazz?  Is Avant Jazz a prog sub-Genre or a sub-genre of jazz?   Was Bowie Prog? 
 
Mile Davis "In a silent way" is in the top 100 prog list here... is it really prog as some define it?  So is Queensryche.  I'm confused. 

It's a tedious undertaking. 

 I had no idea there were so many sub genres of Metal, which is a sub-genre of Rock.



Edited by Valdez1 - February 29 2024 at 23:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2024 at 22:02
^ NO genre has hundreds of subgenres. Not even prog and metal but they do have a lot!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2024 at 21:27
Originally posted by Valdez1 Valdez1 wrote:

YES... Prog is a genre... And its the only genre to have hundreds of sub-genres following behind it, only because it is so interesting and exploratory.  Thats a good thing.  All praise King Prog & his subjects.
Ask any metal-head how many established and recognized sub-genres of metal there are, and you will question the validity of this statement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2024 at 20:28
^ I'd say Rock has more sub-genres - including Prog (and quite a few of its sub-genres) which is called Prog Rock you know.

Edited by Saperlipopette! - February 29 2024 at 22:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2024 at 18:03
YES... Prog is a genre... And its the only genre to have hundreds of sub-genres following behind it, only because it is so interesting and exploratory.  Thats a good thing.  All praise King Prog & his subjects.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moyan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2024 at 11:05
Originally posted by Mehrdadgan Mehrdadgan wrote:

Prog is definitely a genre..
Because it is very unique in terms of song structure, composition and concept.
Well, the idea of 'prog' is occasionally considered a concept even when the mind is unable to adequately conceptualise or understand it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moyan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2024 at 10:12
'Prog' is not a genre. It's a pseudo-notion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cosmiclawnmower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 29 2024 at 05:32
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ sadly if you get outside of the largest urban areas music stores are almost completely extinct

Even here in the Bay Area almost all of the music stores are gone except a very few hold outs and a handful of specialty stores

Rent is simply too much

They can thrive in university towns however.  Champaign IL USA; Exeter Devon UK; Tucson AZ USA all have excellent, well-stocked music stores. 

Was Rooster records in Exeter when you were there cstack3??


Thanks!  Not quite sure, I was there, off & on, in the early & mid 1990s.  Amazing place!  

While strolling down High Street, I saw a tiny sign, "Mansons Guitars."  I entered and soon met Hugh Manson, who was Steve Howe's luthier and also luthier to John Paul Jones, Martin Barre and many other Brit artists.  I bought this amazing hand-made fretless bass from Hugh, I wish I could play it well enough to do it justice!!  This Yank LOVES Great Britain!! 


Ha! great photo and lovely Bass! I know Manson's and have friends who are professional musicians that use them; indeed, an old mate got one of their guys to service and set up my Bass for me as a birthday presentBig smile. You may have Missed Rooster records, set up in Exeter around the end of the 1990's, fantastic small independent shop owned by a lovely couple.. Steve Howe was a regular (he lives in North Devon) and Martin Barre also lives in Devon (my Daughter went to college with his Son; Martin used to host young musicians workshops at his studio back then). Glad you enjoyed your time here, The UK has become a messy, overcrowded place but Devon and Somerset are still lovelyBig smile.

Apologies, enough hijacking the thread..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2024 at 22:18
Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ sadly if you get outside of the largest urban areas music stores are almost completely extinct

Even here in the Bay Area almost all of the music stores are gone except a very few hold outs and a handful of specialty stores

Rent is simply too much

They can thrive in university towns however.  Champaign IL USA; Exeter Devon UK; Tucson AZ USA all have excellent, well-stocked music stores. 

Was Rooster records in Exeter when you were there cstack3??


Thanks!  Not quite sure, I was there, off & on, in the early & mid 1990s.  Amazing place!  

While strolling down High Street, I saw a tiny sign, "Mansons Guitars."  I entered and soon met Hugh Manson, who was Steve Howe's luthier and also luthier to John Paul Jones, Martin Barre and many other Brit artists.  I bought this amazing hand-made fretless bass from Hugh, I wish I could play it well enough to do it justice!!  This Yank LOVES Great Britain!! 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cosmiclawnmower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2024 at 09:47
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ sadly if you get outside of the largest urban areas music stores are almost completely extinct

Even here in the Bay Area almost all of the music stores are gone except a very few hold outs and a handful of specialty stores

Rent is simply too much

They can thrive in university towns however.  Champaign IL USA; Exeter Devon UK; Tucson AZ USA all have excellent, well-stocked music stores. 

Was Rooster records in Exeter when you were there cstack3??





Edited by Cosmiclawnmower - February 28 2024 at 14:25

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2024 at 19:01
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ sadly if you get outside of the largest urban areas music stores are almost completely extinct

Even here in the Bay Area almost all of the music stores are gone except a very few hold outs and a handful of specialty stores

Rent is simply too much

They can thrive in university towns however.  Champaign IL USA; Exeter Devon UK; Tucson AZ USA all have excellent, well-stocked music stores. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2024 at 18:47
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

In the record stores I remember from the 90s/2000s in Germany, none had a Prog section. It was Rock/Pop, Metal, Jazz and Classical music.

Yes, this pretty much applies to from the early seventies and backwards in time before prog was even a category, including country/ folk and excepting Metal maybe.

Prog was a mixture of all these categories and for a while it seemed that categories didn't really matter because prog brought them all together.

Then along came Punk and music seems to have splintered in all directions.

Weather this was a good or bad thing is up to each person to decide for themselves I guess.



 
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