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moshkito View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 16 2024 at 13:29
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

A good thing about the review is certainly that you "declared an interest". I wouldn't call this objective (but then I don't like that term anyway, at least when it comes to music), but certainly it makes the reader appreciate where you are coming from. Which is a helpful element in a negative review.

Hi,

When one is looking at something different, and not a run of the mill piece of work ... things change ... you have no ideas, or boundaries to "declare an interest" beyond ... wonder what all this is about.

This is, for example, since music does not really have anything like it, what one will find in the film maker Gaspar Noe ... where what you think and expect is never there, and what takes place instead is ... wow ... you gotta be kidding me ... and the total surprises  and jumps that you go through take apart your ideas of anything that you have seen before, or think about! It's that different.

BUT, can one say that it is wrong, or bad?

NO.

Does a review have to be complimentary?

NO.

But you can not sit here or there and pontificate on your values that you think makes a bad film ... but the way that things are done, by this director is outside the levels of interpretation and understanding, for most of us, that are into a commercial style of music, and does not always frequent, or discuss the most unusual and different things, and the growls keep on coming! Wow ... that's original!

The examples are tough ... a film that is strictly inside the guy's mind ... and I mean inside his mind ... we only see what he thinks and does ... a film that goes from the end to the start ... totally insane but really well defined and written! And if that's not enough a trip to the other side, in ways that we can only imagine they are like, but in this case ... you go out of the theater wondering ... wow ... what is this about?

Rock music, in general, and this includes the stuff that is considered "conceptual", is kindergarten stuff by comparison ... it's literary ideal and value is in the area of "make belief" and has very little value otherwise. But we think that the fact that it is "considered" a concept, that it makes it important ... well I guess it is but that is not the definition of a "concept" and never has been!

GG is a tough listen for many, specially folks that are into the numbers and into the fame/famous bands ... because their sound has become so homogenized to your mind, as to make it specially hard to see/hear different things, which will often create some confusion inside your noodles. 

To me, that "confusion" is the root of something new to learn and study. This has been the history of all the arts for hundreds and hundreds of years, so Echolyn sounding like a different version of Gentle Giant is not quite a big deal ... although I don't really see folks say that Tchaikovsky copied Beethoven and wanted just as many Symphonies! (... something like that!).

Writing a review of something you (apparently) do not relate to very well, is a bit of an issue, however, that's like saying that those 2 stooges that did a lot of film reviews agreed on everything ... just about one third of their stuff they did not agree at all ... and it still made the grace, and you might want to check their work some. 
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A good thing about the review is certainly that you "declared an interest". I wouldn't call this objective (but then I don't like that term anyway, at least when it comes to music), but certainly it makes the reader appreciate where you are coming from. Which is a helpful element in a negative review.
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It's quite a long time ago that I don't write reviews but when I did, I felt that the approach should be different depending on the reasons why you don't enjoy much the album.

My premise was basically not to write negative reviews of albums of sub-genres I don't enjoy much in themselves. Let's say I don't fancy much Extreme Prog Metal, but because some particular album of this genre is getting a lot of praise, I decide to give it a chance and listen to it a few times. But no way, I don't like it. It's not that it may not be good in its own terms, but I simply don't like the style of music. In this case I consider myself unable to appreciate or to discern and judge the good and the bad, as surely a fan of the genre will be able to do. I could never do the album justice. So I pass on reviewing.

But if I like Symphonic, and I listen to a Symphonic album which I don't like, I feel confident that I can critizise it giving the reasons why. Perhaps the compositions are weak, or the musicians are not very proficient, or it is excessively flat and boring, or the production sounds amateurish, or whatever.
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I have never been a Gentle Giant fanatic personally and Echolyn are more my speed musically. Great chops, I like the 'emo' vocals and strong emphasis on melody. One of the great bands that has come out of the US post 80's along with Dream Theater, Spocks Beard and more latterly the oft overlooked but brilliant Presto Ballet. It was a heavier style of symphonic prog. The review is a personal one, driven by the need not to dismiss a band that is considered important. I've never had any problem woth 'endless bombast and constant overplaying' Big smile
Thanks for the kind words, Richard. I too think that the band has great chops and should have said so in the review. Along with stating that those, like you, who enjoy bombast would enjoy this album. It's funny that you should mention Spock's Beard as I'm quite a fan. They too have hit the Gentle Giant train on occasion, as a song like "June" demonstrates. But the difference between SB and Echolyn is that SB have explored many other prog influences and are not stuck in one groove. And they know when to lay back and when to max out. It's a balancing act. Rush did this the best as is demonstrated with a song like "The Trees". But that's why they're Rush.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 
...
I think that there's different objectives to a review based on either how well the artist is known or if relatively unknown. If known, there's a certain amount of descriptive short hand available. If relatively unknown then descriptions of the music become paramount. As well as comparisons. I don't think that there is a set template for any review. There's just too many differentiating factors involved.

HI,

Not necessarily. 

It doesn't matter if it is known or not ... what matters is the work itself ... again, the "known" and "unknown" idea is already based on something that you know, or see, as opposed to do NOT see. And the point in a lot of the music that became known as "progressive" was EXACTLY about what you DID NOT SEE, or EXPECT that made the music exciting and far out to our ears ... we had NEVER heard anything like it before, and to me, that is the "magic" of the review and comments.

This is one reason why I prefer a lot of new and unknown things ... nothing to compare it to, and your mind has to do some gymnastics in order to learn something new and work to find a thread in it that ticks with you ... whereas something that is "known" or done before, is just not as appealing, as a review, let alone a listen!

I think one has to separate the personal "knowing" from the stuff that you are seeing that you do not know, or understand. Otherwise, I think all you can find is the same stuff that you already know, and for me, that is the best recipe to boredom, and AoY numbers! I won't review those ever.
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Points: 28029 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2024 at 22:06
I have never been a Gentle Giant fanatic personally and Echolyn are more my speed musically. Great chops, I like the 'emo' vocals and strong emphasis on melody. One of the great bands that has come out of the US post 80's along with Dream Theater, Spocks Beard and more latterly the oft overlooked but brilliant Presto Ballet. It was a heavier style of symphonic prog. The review is a personal one, driven by the need not to dismiss a band that is considered important. I've never had any problem woth 'endless bombast and constant overplaying' Big smile
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 
...
 2.5 rounded up to 3. Over playing and busy arrangements sounds objective to me, but I suppose one man's busy is another man's snoozefest. Maybe in an altered state.


Hi,

I do not like to criticize reviews ... the opinions are often needed and appreciated. The honesty, is the difference. It's not like you are telling everyone that they sound like "washing machine music" (given to TD one time by a total idiot!) ... and your view is fine.

FOR ME, it falls into an area that is very tough to listen to, and often gets in trouble with many listeners, and even FRank Zappa fits the bill! It's too busy, and sometimes, that "busy-ness" is not as good as it seems to be, and GG is very tough in this area as their mixes are insane, and if broken down properly, shows a knowledge of music history that is rarely found or seen anywhere. My issue with "copies" is that they do not have the history behind it, and don't know how to apply them in a way that is smoother for our ears ... I think GG did a magnificent job, and they were NOT one of the bands that I loved in the early days ... today, when I hear it, the musicianship is so far and above the majority of anything listed in the AOY stuff, that it is not funny ... but we think the numbers are more important!

All in all, for me, the best thing to do is to find a thread that does not compare it to anything, and this is the tough side of a review ... which I found in film, and learned when I saw the film "Visions of Light", although my training and studying as a director for theater and film, had me looking at more than one thing in any production, and this is the part that is hard to do with a rock band ... too many of them do not really have anything with them, beyond the "believe me" thing ... and this is the bad part of the fan side of all this, which makes your making a review very tough ... I like to say ... don't be a fan ... just be yourself!

The nice part of taking that route, is that all of a sudden, in a film, you find 5 or 10 details that help define a review ... and this is the part that is tough for me in music reviews, as the music and the words in them, are not enough ... there is something missing there ... and I call it "the soul" of the work. WHEN the whole thing is based on an "IDEA" you got to realize that it comes from someone's mind ... and you and I CAN NOT read their minds in order to make a good sense of what is being done ... and many folks rely on their idea of what it sounds like, and immediately compare it to something else since they have no words for it otherwise.

And that is the part you have to let go, to get a good review. At least one that makes sense to you!
I think that there's different objectives to a review based on either how well the artist is known or if relatively unknown. If known, there's a certain amount of descriptive short hand available. If relatively unknown then descriptions of the music become paramount. As well as comparisons. I don't think that there is a set template for any review. Theere's just too many differentiating factors involved.

Edited by SteveG - February 15 2024 at 12:04
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 
...
 2.5 rounded up to 3. Over playing and busy arrangements sounds objective to me, but I suppose one man's busy is another man's snoozefest. Maybe in an altered state.

Hi,

I do not like to criticize reviews ... the opinions are often needed and appreciated. The honesty, is the difference. It's not like you are telling everyone that they sound like "washing machine music" (given to TD one time by a total idiot!) ... and your view is fine.

FOR ME, it falls into an area that is very tough to listen to, and often gets in trouble with many listeners, and even FRank Zappa fits the bill! It's too busy, and sometimes, that "busy-ness" is not as good as it seems to be, and GG is very tough in this area as their mixes are insane, and if broken down properly, shows a knowledge of music history that is rarely found or seen anywhere. My issue with "copies" is that they do not have the history behind it, and don't know how to apply them in a way that is smoother for our ears ... I think GG did a magnificent job, and they were NOT one of the bands that I loved in the early days ... today, when I hear it, the musicianship is so far and above the majority of anything listed in the AOY stuff, that it is not funny ... but we think the numbers are more important!

All in all, for me, the best thing to do is to find a thread that does not compare it to anything, and this is the tough side of a review ... which I found in film, and learned when I saw the film "Visions of Light", although my training and studying as a director for theater and film, had me looking at more than one thing in any production, and this is the part that is hard to do with a rock band ... too many of them do not really have anything with them, beyond the "believe me" thing ... and this is the bad part of the fan side of all this, which makes your making a review very tough ... I like to say ... don't be a fan ... just be yourself!

The nice part of taking that route, is that all of a sudden, in a film, you find 5 or 10 details that help define a review ... and this is the part that is tough for me in music reviews, as the music and the words in them, are not enough ... there is something missing there ... and I call it "the soul" of the work. WHEN the whole thing is based on an "IDEA" you got to realize that it comes from someone's mind ... and you and I CAN NOT read their minds in order to make a good sense of what is being done ... and many folks rely on their idea of what it sounds like, and immediately compare it to something else since they have no words for it otherwise.

And that is the part you have to let go, to get a good review. At least one that makes sense to you!
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Good review but I don't agree with your thoughts. Paul Ramsey, IMO, is a fantastic drummer that does not need Valium, and Gentle Giant is one of the best prog acts ever and I love their "busy" multi-layered vocals. I really don't see anything you wrote that is "objective", and I'm confused that you gave it three stars when the review reads like it should be two stars.
2.5 rounded up to 3. Over playing and busy arrangements sounds objective to me, but I suppose one man's busy is another man's snoozefest. Maybe in an altered state.

Edited by SteveG - February 15 2024 at 08:39
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Good review but I don't agree with your thoughts. Paul Ramsey, IMO, is a fantastic drummer that does not need Valium, and Gentle Giant is one of the best prog acts ever and I love their "busy" multi-layered vocals. I really don't see anything you wrote that is "objective", and I'm confused that you gave it three stars when the review reads like it should be two stars.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

...

There's nothing wrong with prog musicians taking inspiration from their heroes, be they Gentle Giant, Yes, KC or who ever, but some restraint would have resulted in Echolyn suffocating the bloom instead of suffocating the music.


Hi

I'm of the opinion that bands that "take the inspiration" from their heroes are bands that are not exactly in sync with their own abilities, and thus need to show themselves that they can do this, as a way to show that they are also capable.

I find this sad ... because one would be ignoring the very source of inspiration itself, which is within you and has nothing to do with anyone else.

That doesn't mean that many bands are not good enough, or capable, and then you can listen to Stackridge, and you know that song writing and Beatles are tops for them, and they don't sound like The Beatles at all, and in fact complement them really well even doing a song or two ... maybe even better than the original!

It's weird to me, that some folks think they have to "sound" like, or "be" like someone else in order to believe they are good enough musicians to do something. But it shows, a music scene that only teaches copy to learn, and does not know how to help folks with "creativity" other than doing something already done ... well, let me tell you ... almost all "progressive" drummers, learned nothing from Moonie, Bonzo, a few Zappa drummers ... and how to interpret music ... they all can count ... oh yeah ... beautifully ... but they don't know how to let go of their snare drum to learn how to color music and not just keep time! 

It is a disease within "progressive music", but then, I seriously doubt that many of those musicians will (eventually) make it to the pantheon of greatness, because their originality that comes from themselves, is not quite visible, and their "ideas" are more important than looking in the mirror for inspiration ... they have to look at someone else! The most they can get is some "fame" ... and in my book, they can have that ... good luck living with people telling you what to do that is not a part of your inner self!
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Seems like a quite fine and fair review. You were specific regarding the aspects you didn't like, and what changes could be made to make it fit comfortably in your musical wheelhouse. And because the music lacked any specific faults (e.g. singing out of key, amateurish compositions, playing out of synch, horrendous mixing, etc.) -- a 3 star rating was probably appropriate.

Sometimes I will give a lower fractional rating (i.e. 2-1/2 stars) in the write-up, and tell them I rounded up for some reason (e.g. it was a good effort, PA doesn't allow fractions, giving benefit of the doubt, etc). It emphasizes your overall disappointment without being too harsh on their ratings.
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Now on the main reviews home page. My review of "Suffocating The Bloom" by Echolyn. Comments welcome. Enjoy.

Suffocating the Bloom
Echolyn Symphonic Prog

Review by SteveG

3 stars Suffocating The Bloom is one of the most beloved 90s prog albums but I've never cottoned to that opinion. To get the elephant in the room ejected, I must state that their love of all things Gentle Giant is the biggest mark gainst them to me, never being a fan of GG and their busy multi vocal workouts. So, trying to place that aside I decided to review the album on just the first 4 songs as anymore would just be repition. Especially when it comes to the album's 20 plus minute closing suite.

The lead off track "21" is a toned down affair with gentle acoustic guitar strums and keyboard strings. It reminds me of a ballad that Kansas would do. But do much better. It's also very atypical to the rest of the songs on the album. "Winterthru" seems to be an ode to the Christmas season, if not the holiday itself. It has pleasant melodies and a very Renaissance Novella era verse and vocals. Filled with all manor of chimes and bells, it's quite busy enough but sent over the edge by the song's bombastic chorus. This is where the drumming of Paul Ramsey goes ballistic and almost over powers the music. Some restraint would have been welcome but that word doesn't seem to be in this drummer's vocabulary. This would be a trademark throughout the album. "Reaping The Harvest" starts out mellow enough but it's bombastic chorus now the feature the GG style multi lead and counter vocals. Busy enough in itself if the drummer didn't think that every faster paced chorus and instrumental break was a competition with ELP's "Karnevil 9". Even ELP knew when to lay low. Remember "Lucky Man". And that goes for the rest of this group too. The following track "In The Garden" starts off with a long synth piece that's quite boring. I'm not sure what purpose it serves the song. The song changes into a faster paced multi vocal workout over a jazzy melody and rhythm before exploding into more over played choruses and instrumental breaks. And more over playing from, you guessed it, the drummer.

Having listened to this album a few times, I could repeat the same criticisms on the rest of the songs, but that would be academic. "Suffocating The Bloom" is well recorded and well played, but an outside producer was needed to reign in a lot of the endless bombast and constant overplaying. And give the drummer a Valium.

There's nothing wrong with prog musicians taking inspiration from their heroes, be they Gentle Giant, Yes, KC or who ever, but some restraint would have resulted in Echolyn suffocating the bloom instead of suffocating the music.



Edited by SteveG - February 15 2024 at 05:52
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I actually do think that a negative subjective review can be valid (along the lines of what Snicolette said), but then I think it would be best to abstain from submitting a rating. I don't think that's possible at PA, but it is at AP, and I've seen that in print magazines occasionally. 
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Steve,
I'm looking forward to your review of that Echolyn lp.
I have similar thoughts on the band to what you posted in your original post..
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I feel a review coming on. Stay tuned.

Edited by SteveG - February 11 2024 at 15:34
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Back in the 90s, I obtained Echolyn's album "Suffocating The Bloom". As an American neo prog band, I was excited to see what they were about. I was less excited after listening to it. The album had too many references to Gentle Giant's musical motifs for my taste. And I never cared for Gentle Giant, despite their originality. So, all these years later, I gave "Suffocating The Bloom" another listen hoping to write an objective review but I'm struggling. Any suggestions on writing one for this or any other album that doesn't move you?

Interesting question. Apart from the fact that "objective review" seems to be an oxymoron to me, I think I understand what your getting at. As a reader of reviews, I'm not expecting objectivity, but I'm expecting a subjective assessment that is at the same time descriptive enough so that I can get enough information for myself to guess if I might or not like an album.
Regarding your example of Echolyn's album it is not that much if you like it or not what would interest me in your review, but rather why you like or don't like it. Saying that you never cared that much for Gentle Giant and that this album is too reminiscent (to you) to this band is an information that would be valuable to me to give an impression about the music itself, and not only about your personal appreciation of it - this is definitely something that would have its place in a review.
More gerenerally I think a review should be giving enough descriptive ("objective" if you wish) information to give the reader something to relate to and "understand" your take on it: understand the particulars/qualities of the music, but also why those are or are not what speaks to you. Comparisons may help to make an argument, not objective, but subjective, but that is how readers can get information about the music beyond the I like/I don't like dichotomy.
👍 Good advice. Will do.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Back in the 90s, I obtained Echolyn's album "Suffocating The Bloom". As an American neo prog band, I was excited to see what they were about. I was less excited after listening to it. The album had too many references to Gentle Giant's musical motifs for my taste. And I never cared for Gentle Giant, despite their originality. So, all these years later, I gave "Suffocating The Bloom" another listen hoping to write an objective review but I'm struggling. Any suggestions on writing one for this or any other album that doesn't move you?

Yeah---   write about exactly that feeling: that conundrum of not liking, listening again after years, still not liking, and what that means to you as a listener & reviewer.



Edited by Atavachron - February 11 2024 at 15:06
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Points: 9050 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2024 at 13:26
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Back in the 90s, I obtained Echolyn's album "Suffocating The Bloom". As an American neo prog band, I was excited to see what they were about. I was less excited after listening to it. The album had too many references to Gentle Giant's musical motifs for my taste. And I never cared for Gentle Giant, despite their originality. So, all these years later, I gave "Suffocating The Bloom" another listen hoping to write an objective review but I'm struggling. Any suggestions on writing one for this or any other album that doesn't move you?

Interesting question. Apart from the fact that "objective review" seems to be an oxymoron to me, I think I understand what your getting at. As a reader of reviews, I'm not expecting objectivity, but I'm expecting a subjective assessment that is at the same time descriptive enough so that I can get enough information for myself to guess if I might or not like an album.
Regarding your example of Echolyn's album it is not that much if you like it or not what would interest me in your review, but rather why you like or don't like it. Saying that you never cared that much for Gentle Giant and that this album is too reminiscent (to you) to this band is an information that would be valuable to me to give an impression about the music itself, and not only about your personal appreciation of it - this is definitely something that would have its place in a review.
More gerenerally I think a review should be giving enough descriptive ("objective" if you wish) information to give the reader something to relate to and "understand" your take on it: understand the particulars/qualities of the music, but also why those are or are not what speaks to you. Comparisons may help to make an argument, not objective, but subjective, but that is how readers can get information about the music beyond the I like/I don't like dichotomy.

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Points: 20604 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2024 at 05:34
There's some very good posts here. I appreciate everyone's comments.

Edited by SteveG - February 10 2024 at 05:37
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