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siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 12 2023 at 13:24
^ totally agree about Riverside and Haken switching places here :)

Yeah in the 70s most bands today are labeled as both hard rock and heavy metal because every album featured songs that were indeed heavy metal and songs that weren't heavy enough to escape the confines of hard rock status. In the 2000s even neo-prog bands have added metal elements after Porcupine Tree took metal into the world of space rock. Even Hawkwind started out with a near metal guitar heft with their unique space rock. Some of the newer prog / avant / metal bands are much more rooted in 20th century classical than anything from the world of rock or trad metal. It's a full time job keeping up with it!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2023 at 12:50
^You're right. There's especially blurry lines when we talk about the distinction between heavy prog and prog metal. This site has Haken as heavy prog and Riverside as prog metal where if anything it should be the other way around. At some point some prog bands started to put metal in their- prog without being prog metal (and it's hard to say when it started -although a band I mention a bit on here called Mastermind might have been one of the first - not counting someone like King Crimson) . Even back in the 70s there was a blur between hard rock and metal and I have read that Aerosmith, Ted Nugent and Kiss were all considered heavy metal back then (probably Van Halen too). 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - August 12 2023 at 12:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2023 at 12:41
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Wow. Great job and great list! I don't agree with everything 100 percent but then again it's not your list of personal favorites anyway (although I'm sure you like a lot as do I). I'm not really much into prog metal but being how popular it seems to be you can't really not include it. Anyway, thanks for doing it. 


If this was a list of my personal favorites it would've been waaaaaaay different! I don't like Genesis much at all and probably wouldn't have made it on the list at all! Thanks for the kind words :)

Yeah and the distinctions between rock and metal have been blurred in the 21st century so i see no reason to not mix them. Same with certain electronic and folk bands. And of course nobody will agree with any list! That's why i made my own :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2023 at 12:00
Wow. Great job and great list! I don't agree with everything 100 percent but then again it's not your list of personal favorites anyway (although I'm sure you like a lot as do I). I'm not really much into prog metal but being how popular it seems to be you can't really not include it. Anyway, thanks for doing it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2023 at 11:34
Originally posted by essexboyinwales essexboyinwales wrote:

Metal has to be waaay bigger than prog.

You're probably right, I just think these two genres of music have specific audiences, with specific expectations generally (if that makes sense).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote essexboyinwales Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2023 at 11:24
Metal has to be waaay bigger than prog. Yes Cristi, depends where you live, but Spotify ain’t wrong on this overall….
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2023 at 10:21
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ no way. Metal is one of the most popular genres EVER
Approximately 1500 metal albums are on the RYM top 10,000 album list of all time.
That's competing with every genre ever invented
Dozens of bands have sold millions and millions of albums not just Metallica
and then there's this:

Pop and other genres of music are constantly playing on commercials, radio, and TV. It is usual for people to assume that heavy metal music is no longer a thing. Research conducted by Spotify reveals that heavy metal is the most popular music genre

Likewise metal is one of the most popular styles of prog
Is it THE MOST popular genre of all time? Nope but it's more than just a niche at this point.
It's a force to be reckoned with

Research from spotify?! I LOLed and cringed at the same time. I wonder what metal bands are so popular on spotyfry. Other than the famous ones and whatever is trending now in the mainstream. 

You ignored what i previously said. It depends where you live. If you don't get that, I'll just see myself out... 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2023 at 10:06
^ no way. Metal is one of the most popular genres EVER

Approximately 1500 metal albums are on the RYM top 10,000 album list of all time.
That's competing with every genre ever invented

Dozens of bands have sold millions and millions of albums not just Metallica

and then there's this:

Pop and other genres of music are constantly playing on commercials, radio, and TV. It is usual for people to assume that heavy metal music is no longer a thing. Research conducted by Spotify reveals that heavy metal is the most popular music genre

Likewise metal is one of the most popular styles of prog

Is it THE MOST popular genre of all time? Nope but it's more than just a niche at this point.

It's a force to be reckoned with

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2023 at 09:27
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ metal a niche genre? No way. It's always been more popular than prog. It never stopped being popular since the 1980s. Metallica's Black Album has sold over 35 million copies! No prog band can even come close.

A few albums that sold well does not mean the genre is popular. 
It also depends where you live. There are countries where it is more popular than other places. 
It depends on the subgenre, some are more popular than others. 


Edited by Cristi - August 12 2023 at 09:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2023 at 09:24
^ metal a niche genre? No way. It's always been more popular than prog. It never stopped being popular since the 1980s. Metallica's Black Album has sold over 35 million copies! No prog band can even come close.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2023 at 07:53
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Anyway, with the popularity of Metal, it may turn again, as ELP is more Metal-like than Camel. Big smile

Popularity of metal?! Again generalizing. It's still a niche genre, just like prog. 
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2023 at 07:49

Anyway, with the popularity of Metal, it may turn again, as ELP is more Metal-like than Camel. Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2023 at 07:14
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I guess Camel is in general higher rated today, ....

But it's maybe not quite sure that Camel is in general more appreciated today than ELP. It would be good with
 some other significant sources than RYM and PA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frets N Worries Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2023 at 22:02
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


I guess Camel is in general higher rated today, while ELP was without doubt a much greater pioneer of Progressive Rock. 
I still find them to be greater Prog than Camel, even I love The Snow Goose.






Reasons to love ELP
1) The whole idea of Tarkus
2) They made some decent 90s songs in Black Moon which I will defend
3) Underrated Classics (which INCLUDES MEMOIRS OF AN OFFICER AND A GENTLEMAN AND I WILL FIGHT Y'ALL FOR THIS)
4) Keith Emerson flying around with a piano

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2023 at 03:52

I guess Camel is in general higher rated today, while ELP was without doubt a much greater pioneer of Progressive Rock. 
I still find them to be greater Prog than Camel, even I love The Snow Goose.







Edited by David_D - August 11 2023 at 04:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2023 at 07:10
Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

My usual cut and paste comment is ELP too low and Camel too high but no problem with Crimson top.

WIthout trying to study it in great length I did specifically look for Anathema. Weather Systems on it's own would put then in my top 100, the last four together is enough for my top 50 and the whole catalogue easily makes them a top 20 prog artist of all time. Entirely subjective but they have brought something new to the table in my opinion, not just 'copy and paste' (like my comments)!





I considered the ELP and Camel thing. The truth is ELP's popularity has declined significantly since their heyday. Only the debut album has ranked well. If they weren't so innovative and important to history they probably would've been ranked lower. I used to feel the same about Camel but they really got under my skin in the last few years. Too high? Possibly but their popularity seems to have increased in the last few decades and their first four albums are just divine. And you're right about Anathema. Added to tag on list at the end.



Is that ''popularity'' on here or in general? I suspect that ELP reissues sell as well as Camel although I havent looked into it. ELP albums don't get great ratings mainly because they were too inconsistent. I've been over this many times and I think the 'rules' about judging progressive rock should be more about innovation as much as consistency. I do like early Camel although after Moonmadness I stop caring tbh.


Both here and in general. Simply seems that ELP hasn't resonated with newer generations the way Camel has. I agree. I only really love the first four Camel albums and then they're just meh.


As part of Gen Z, I love ELP WAY more than Camel.


Of course some like ELP more than Camel but if you go by the overall ratings on PA and RYM then Camel leaves ELP in the dust.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2023 at 04:35
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Similarities between Prog Metal and Neo-Prog are also obvious when looking at at least some of the artwork.

examples?! Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2023 at 04:09

Similarities between Prog Metal and Neo-Prog are also obvious when looking at at least some of the artwork.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2023 at 02:36
Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

My usual cut and paste comment is ELP too low and Camel too high but no problem with Crimson top.

WIthout trying to study it in great length I did specifically look for Anathema. Weather Systems on it's own would put then in my top 100, the last four together is enough for my top 50 and the whole catalogue easily makes them a top 20 prog artist of all time. Entirely subjective but they have brought something new to the table in my opinion, not just 'copy and paste' (like my comments)!





I considered the ELP and Camel thing. The truth is ELP's popularity has declined significantly since their heyday. Only the debut album has ranked well. If they weren't so innovative and important to history they probably would've been ranked lower. I used to feel the same about Camel but they really got under my skin in the last few years. Too high? Possibly but their popularity seems to have increased in the last few decades and their first four albums are just divine. And you're right about Anathema. Added to tag on list at the end.



Is that ''popularity'' on here or in general? I suspect that ELP reissues sell as well as Camel although I havent looked into it. ELP albums don't get great ratings mainly because they were too inconsistent. I've been over this many times and I think the 'rules' about judging progressive rock should be more about innovation as much as consistency. I do like early Camel although after Moonmadness I stop caring tbh.


Both here and in general. Simply seems that ELP hasn't resonated with newer generations the way Camel has. I agree. I only really love the first four Camel albums and then they're just meh.


As part of Gen Z, I love ELP WAY more than Camel.

My 27yr old Nephew also likes ELP although admittedly he enjoys Floyd a lot more (and loves Animals). Funnily enough I did mention Camel as another band he should check out (I've stopped short of suggesting Gentle Giant and VDGG just yet!)


Edited by richardh - August 10 2023 at 02:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frets N Worries Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2023 at 22:36
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

My usual cut and paste comment is ELP too low and Camel too high but no problem with Crimson top.

WIthout trying to study it in great length I did specifically look for Anathema. Weather Systems on it's own would put then in my top 100, the last four together is enough for my top 50 and the whole catalogue easily makes them a top 20 prog artist of all time. Entirely subjective but they have brought something new to the table in my opinion, not just 'copy and paste' (like my comments)!





I considered the ELP and Camel thing. The truth is ELP's popularity has declined significantly since their heyday. Only the debut album has ranked well. If they weren't so innovative and important to history they probably would've been ranked lower. I used to feel the same about Camel but they really got under my skin in the last few years. Too high? Possibly but their popularity seems to have increased in the last few decades and their first four albums are just divine. And you're right about Anathema. Added to tag on list at the end.



Is that ''popularity'' on here or in general? I suspect that ELP reissues sell as well as Camel although I havent looked into it. ELP albums don't get great ratings mainly because they were too inconsistent. I've been over this many times and I think the 'rules' about judging progressive rock should be more about innovation as much as consistency. I do like early Camel although after Moonmadness I stop caring tbh.


Both here and in general. Simply seems that ELP hasn't resonated with newer generations the way Camel has. I agree. I only really love the first four Camel albums and then they're just meh.


As part of Gen Z, I love ELP WAY more than Camel.
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