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Could TLLDOB be considered proto- neo prog?
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richardh View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 07 2022 at 00:03
yep it always comes back to what is prog rock? 

The definition has been widened over the years to just about any band or artist that is creative. Genesis generally moved to short form songs from Lamb onwards and they were the main inspiration for neo prog bands. 
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I was thinking about how The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway has mostly shorter songs yet still is usually thought of as being full blown prog. 
I would like to comment on this. In my opinion the length of a track is no criteria whether a track is prog rock, symphonic prog or neo-prog at all.  There can me extremely long songs (for example in classical music or in jazz) which is not prog rock, and there are short songs which has all ingredients of a prog rock track. It is about the inner structure, the harmonies, the relations between the instruments etc., which defines prog rock, and also neo-prog. Neo-prog in general is more 'simplified' than symphonic prog in beat, harmonies, stucture etc, not shorter. Just saying.
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Here's a clue for you all, the first proto neo-prog album was 'And then there were three'

Edited by earlyprog - August 03 2022 at 05:29
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Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

As far as the music is concerned, yeah, The Lamb I think was a dramatic shift in Genesis' sound that was much closer to the synthier stuff on ATOTT and especially W&W than it was anything that had come before it, ....

I agree here. Besides that, about half of The Lamb had much more Pop-oriented melodies and vocals than earlier Genesis, and was as such too a forerunner for Neo-Prog, and on that behalf could be called "proto-Neo".


Edited by David_D - August 02 2022 at 18:08
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Argo2112 Argo2112 wrote:

I think if we try to invent one more sub genera of prog (Prot - Neo) the web site may actually explode causing bodily harm to millions of people across the internet. I wouldn't risk it ! LOL
This is true. We should be eliminating sub genres as a safety measure.
 
Agreed LOL
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Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

An album which always sounded proto-neo to me is La Locanda Delle Fate "Forse le Luciole Non Si Amano Piu" (1977). Some guitar lines are very Rothery-eske... but the keyboards are still analog classic prog, no Yamaha DX-7 there.

Agreed--BIG TIME! Re-reading my review of the album I'd also repeatedly cited comparisons to both Genesis Foxtrot/SEbtP-era and Renaissance. 

Since both Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering had come out long before the time Forse le lucciole non si amano più was released (on my 19th birthday in June), might we consider this album, Forse le lucciole non si amano più, to be the birth of Neo Prog--not just proto-? (I mean, as others have said--many, many times for many years--the generally accepted prototype for Neo Prog is/was cosidered to be Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering. Therefore, I say, unleash the hounds!)
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Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

An album which always sounded proto-neo to me is La Locanda Delle Fate "Forse le Luciole Non Si Amano Piu" (1977). Some guitar lines are very Rothery-eske... but the keyboards are still analog classic prog, no Yamaha DX-7 there.

Agreed--BIG TIME! Re-reading my review of the album I'd also repeatedly cited comparisons to both Genesis Foxtrot/SEbtP-era and Renaissance. 

Since both Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering had come out long before the time Forse le lucciole non si amano più was released (on my 19th birthday in June), might we consider this album, Forse le lucciole non si amano più, to be the birth of Neo Prog--not just proto-? (I mean, as others have said--many, many times for many years--the generally accepted prototype for Neo Prog is/was cosidered to be Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering. Therefore, I say, unleash the hounds!)




Edited by BrufordFreak - July 07 2022 at 08:01
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Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

An album which always sounded proto-neo to me is La Locanda Delle Fate "Forse le Luciole Non Si Amano Piu" (1977). Some guitar lines are very Rothery-eske... but the keyboards are still analog classic prog, no Yamaha DX-7 there.

Hi,

SO will any band that has/uses the same instrument for "analog/classic".

It's not about the instrument ... it's about the music! 

I'm not so sure about that. If you replaced the Mellotron in In The Court of the Crimson King with someone who could produce lengthy farts, the music will sound different and have a different impact on the listener. 
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Points: 53389 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 06 2022 at 08:06
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

An album which always sounded proto-neo to me is La Locanda Delle Fate "Forse le Luciole Non Si Amano Piu" (1977). Some guitar lines are very Rothery-eske... but the keyboards are still analog classic prog, no Yamaha DX-7 there.

Hi,

SO will any band that has/uses the same instrument for "analog/classic".

It's not about the instrument ... it's about the music! 

I'm not so sure about that. If you replaced the Mellotron in In The Court of the Crimson King with someone who could produce lengthy farts, the music will sound different and have a different impact on the listener. 
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Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

An album which always sounded proto-neo to me is La Locanda Delle Fate "Forse le Luciole Non Si Amano Piu" (1977). Some guitar lines are very Rothery-eske... but the keyboards are still analog classic prog, no Yamaha DX-7 there.

Hi,

SO will any band that has/uses the same instrument for "analog/classic".

It's not about the instrument ... it's about the music! 
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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An album which always sounded proto-neo to me is La Locanda Delle Fate "Forse le Luciole Non Si Amano Piu" (1977). Some guitar lines are very Rothery-eske... but the keyboards are still analog classic prog, no Yamaha DX-7 there.
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Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

My bathroom wall is a light gray color. Believe it or not, my toilet is also gray. 
I, too, peruse PA on the toilet.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

However, proto prog, proto metal and proto punk are all genres to some people.

Those are different. What you offered up was a flavor like "chocolatey chocolate." LOL
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Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

My bathroom wall is a light gray color. Believe it or not, my toilet is also gray. 


Tony Banks lyric:

"Stone still at my feet, it's grey matches my thinking"   
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My bathroom wall is a light gray color. Believe it or not, my toilet is also gray. 
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

^The confused face emoji made me think you were perturbed by my comments. 

perturbed, no.
confused, kind of.

My post was not a criticism of you, sorry you saw it that way. 
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^The confused face emoji made me think you were perturbed by my comments. 
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

I don't see how calling TLLDOB proto-neo-prog helps with anything. Confused Obviously Genesis was an influence on neo-prog (and some others, too), some even considered neo-prog to be a continuation of symph-prog for the 80s (I have seen this opinion many times here on PA). 

Usually the "proto" prefix helps understand the origins of a genre (proto-prog, proto-metal, proto-punk), it does not become a genre name IMO. 



Wow dude. Relax. Can't people just have a bit of fun around here and offer up some speculation without people getting offended by it?

As for the prefix, that's exactly right and I wasn't trying to turn it into a genre either (which I already explained). However, proto prog, proto metal and proto punk are all genres to some people.

I am relaxed and i am not offended. I don't know how you think I am offended, or angry. Confused
Just saying what I think. 
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

I don't see how calling TLLDOB proto-neo-prog helps with anything. Confused Obviously Genesis was an influence on neo-prog (and some others, too), some even considered neo-prog to be a continuation of symph-prog for the 80s (I have seen this opinion many times here on PA). 

Usually the "proto" prefix helps understand the origins of a genre (proto-prog, proto-metal, proto-punk), it does not become a genre name IMO. 



Wow dude. Relax. Can't people just have a bit of fun around here and offer up some speculation without people getting offended by it?

As for the prefix, that's exactly right and I wasn't trying to turn it into a genre either (which I already explained). However, proto prog, proto metal and proto punk are all genres to some people.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - July 04 2022 at 07:26
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^ based the enlightened comments above can I suggest we now close down the site (preferably opening a new one and not telling Moshkito lol)

Hi,

Yeah ... an inch over the top, but I wonder why folks consider this so important ... for example ... you don't listen to Beethoven because he is "romantic" (or from that period) and you don't listen to Bach because he is "baroque", just like you don't listen to Stravinsky because he is ... hmmmm ... surrealistic?

I think that after a point, and 50 years is probably a "good" point to judge the appreciation, that these discussions should ... well, not sure we can remove them, but a foot down a little bit to help keep the definitions in a proper working condition, would be preferable ... but given that thought, I'm not sure that many of us would even consider, or be able to, help "define" and help the definitions that were created by non-musicians that loved copies, stay up stronger than ever ... instead, it feels like they are being diluted and consequently it will render a lot of work meritless ... which would be a shame.

Already, I can tell you that almost anything "proto" or "neo" is not a major player in my collection, to give you an idea ... and a lot of the music does not excite me, as material that is much more original does. 




Edited by moshkito - July 04 2022 at 07:05
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