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David_D View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 09 2022 at 15:30
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

....Saying that Rick and Keith were classically minded is only stated because they played some classical pieces, and YES ended up having classical music in the opening of a lot of their concerts. JT is not a good representative of being influenced by classical music, ....

I agree with you that Macan's definition of "progressive rock" doesn't fit well neither Jethro Tull nor ELP. 

(If anybody's interested in the Progressive Rock definitions by Macan, Stump and Lucky, see my Progressive Rock defining article,  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127835 )


Edited by David_D - March 10 2022 at 04:07
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by enigmatic enigmatic wrote:

I've read all the prog-rock books (Stump, Macan, Lucky + few biographies). None of these books contain good definition of progressive rock. 
Agree, concerning the first three ones and all the other books, I've read.

I'd like to correct this.

I don't find the Progressive Rock definitions by Macan, Stump and Lucky being good to be used today, but they may be very fine if seen in historical perspective and concerning the 70's. 

Hi,

I'm going to disagree with this. I was around then, and had the albums, and listened to a lot more music than the stuff these folks mention, and their ability to see something in music is questionable at best, and not exactly well educated in terms of music history (I'm not either ... to an extent), in order to make some of the comments they made. Saying that Rick and Keith were classically minded is only stated because they played some classical pieces, and YES ended up having classical music in the opening of a lot of their concerts. JT is not a good representative of being influenced by classical music, though I'm not even sure why I say that. KC was more indicative of the "new" classical music, via well rehearsed and defined music. 

It was a lot to take in, and all very different. And 50 years later, when you hear Rachel Flowers do Tarkus and other Emerson pieces on solo piano or organ, guess what ... he should be considered a classical composer ... but folks here hate classical music and think it is the sh*t of the past and not valid ... besides the fact that old music can not have amplifiers which folks today have a serious issue with ... music with amps is good, music without is not!

Again, if the topic and meaning of "progressive" is defined properly, then the ridiculous definition that a few websites offer for the music would be taken down quickly and updated. Those statements are not about the music itself ... they are about ideas that supposedly mean this or that ... ideas that cause folks in different places to tell you ... my God is different! And you don't care? Or look at the meaning? Or maybe accept that the translation of the idea of "progressive" is likely not very good and is too old and uneducated to actually be worth the mention!
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Back when it made sense
As per circa 76-77 the label/badge/sticker of prog pretty much stopped making sense. Most of what could or can be considered genuinely progressive rock music from around that time had nothing to do with the type of bands being mentioned as prog.

Put another way: it was around that time that the label started making sense(?). People suddenly had a box to throw prog into. ‘Hey it’s got mellotron, odd time signatures and a keyboard solo!!! Gotta be prog!’
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

They are not progressive because what the newer bands are doing has already been done...so by definition that's not progressive.
If PT are using the same "style" that Pink Floyd, Genesis, Yes was doing then it's only influence or they are borrowing that style. Which I am fine with as that's what newer bands do......

Catcher, what if "progressive" is understood as "beyond mainstream", isn't it then okay to include the newer "prog" bands? Smile

And as you are not the only one to have your understanding of "progressive", I'm addressing now others as well.
- It's just something to think about, though.


Edited by David_D - March 09 2022 at 05:37
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

They are not progressive because what the newer bands are doing has already been done...so by definition that's not progressive.
If PT are using the same "style" that Pink Floyd, Genesis, Yes was doing then it's only influence or they are borrowing that style. Which I am fine with as that's what newer bands do......

I can understand this point of view, Catcher, but I may doubt whether it's constructive for the genre. Ermm


Edited by David_D - March 06 2022 at 07:04
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Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

What people do with words almost never follows a definition. "To coin a term" says that someone starts using such term implying a new meaning. After the fact, other people (like ourselves) struggle looking for a definition.

Anyway, what is the difference between "a new meaning" and "definition"?
A definition is usually given trying to leave nothing to imply, it's a explicit statement. On the other side, someone on the radio (magazine, book, stage) can call "progressive" a bunch of bands without further explanation. The new meaning is implicit, and left to the audience, it's now their turn to figure out whatever that means. If they remain interested and intrigued enough, the coining game has begun. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a part of life, and a very interesting phenomenon to delve into, I think.

Thank you very much for this explanation, Heart of the Matter, and I certainly find it as something very natural and interesting, as well. Smile
 


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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

What people do with words almost never follows a definition. "To coin a term" says that someone starts using such term implying a new meaning. After the fact, other people (like ourselves) struggle looking for a definition.


Anyway, what is the difference between "a new meaning" and "definition"?

Edit:
Or maybe I can see it already, is it like when Prophesy talk about a "new" meaning of "progressive rock" without really being able to define it - at least as I see it?



A definition is usually given trying to leave nothing to imply, it's a explicit statement. On the other side, someone on the radio (magazine, book, stage) can call "progressive" a bunch of bands without further explanation. The new meaning is implicit, and left to the audience, it's now their turn to figure out whatever that means. If they remain interested and intrigued enough, the coining game has begun. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a part of life, and a very interesting phenomenon to delve into, I think.
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Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

What people do with words almost never follows a definition. "To coin a term" says that someone starts using such term implying a new meaning. After the fact, other people (like ourselves) struggle looking for a definition.

Anyway, what is the difference between "a new meaning" and "definition"?

Edit:
Or maybe I can see it already, is it like when Prophesy talk about a "new" meaning of "progressive rock" without really being able to define it - at least as I see it?


Edited by David_D - February 27 2022 at 05:41
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Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

What people do with words almost never follows a definition. "To coin a term" says that someone starts using such term implying a new meaning. After the fact, other people (like ourselves) struggle looking for a definition.

But it's maybe better to talk about "having coined a term", meaning other people start to use the term someone "has coined" (implying a new meaning).


Edited by David_D - February 27 2022 at 09:08
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Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

What people do with words almost never follows a definition. "To coin a term" says that someone starts using such term implying a new meaning. After the fact, other people (like ourselves) struggle looking for a definition.

Just for my personal use and to think about it, and Heart of the Matter, if you haven't yet read my introductory considerations in my Progressive Rock defining article ("What is it all about?"), I'd appreciate if you do that and maybe comment them.


Edited by David_D - February 27 2022 at 09:06
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

You have a rather awkward habit to rewrite your posts days after they have been posted ....

I'm glad, you've seen all of it, even I can wonder how come that your reply to my post didn't come before but right after my new post. Ermm

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

...(awkward for a "trained historian" to rewrite history like this... I will not ask where you got your "training").

Sorry, but you don't seem to have much understanding about it. 

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

...falsely accuse someone of something he's not guilty of..I will jump on your back again.

Are you now the new "PA's thought police" and judge?  Whatever, it sounds like a threat to me. Shocked

And certainly don't worry about me wanting to write PMs to you - even I find this post of yours somehow more friendly and pleasant than the former one. 


Edited by David_D - February 26 2022 at 15:28
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Please, stop being so negative, and I'd say this is personal attack which is not allowed by PA rules.

As trained historian (the classic "authority argument" in rhetoric...) you should be a better and more critical reader: This is definitely not a personal attack (and this is not the first time you accuse someone abusively!). It is about taking into account the personal memories expressed here in this thread instead of - only - relying on "written history"  (selected by... you!).
"Maybe nothing is really true, and not even that." 

Ookaay, I can see, it's the higher wisdom speaking - excuse me, sir. Wacko
But maybe as constructive as your avatar, and frankly speaking, suitkees,
I've had my thoughts about it. Is jumping on someone's back when he's 
arguing with another person one of your specialties, as you now do it 
second time with me?
You have a rather awkward habit to rewrite your posts days after they have been posted (awkward for a "trained historian" to rewrite history like this... I will not ask where you got your "training").
But since there now appears a question in it addressed to me I feel compelled to answer, despite the fact that I try not to interact with you anymore: No, it is not a specialty, but I will do it again when you, again (since this was also your second time), falsely accuse someone of something he's not guilty of. I will not ask you to apologize to moshkito for this, because I think this is entirely up to you, but when you do this again to whomever on this forum, then - yes - I will jump on your back again (if someone else will not do that before me), because I find this kind of attitude rather intolerable on internet forums.

And please, do not PM me, I won't answer.

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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by enigmatic enigmatic wrote:

I've read all the prog-rock books (Stump, Macan, Lucky + few biographies). None of these books contain good definition of progressive rock. 
Agree, concerning the first three ones and all the other books, I've read.

I'd like to correct this.

I don't find the Progressive Rock definitions by Macan, Stump and Lucky being good to be used today, but they may be very fine if seen in historical perspective and concerning the 70's. 


Edited by David_D - February 26 2022 at 07:09
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Originally posted by enigmatic enigmatic wrote:



I can't go on with this topic forever, I give up. You win!


Yes, I know. LOL
 
Just kidding. But seriously, "progressive bands" or "progressive artists" were bandied about in that era, but virtually no one said "progressive music" or "progressive rock", and I think that's where a lot of confusion comes into play. And confused memories.


Edited by SteveG - February 26 2022 at 06:19
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Hi,

^^^^^

I have to admit that even during the 70's and 80's the term was never in our house, and was used by anyone that I remembered meeting. 

It wasn't until 1990 when I got my first computer that I saw that Fido and many other groups for messaging, all of a sudden were using "progressive rock" to describe the music ... and as many issues of Melody Maker as I got and read in the 70's, I don't remember it using the term a whole lot, or referring to a select few as that.

But for a lot of us ... it didn't matter ... the music itself was above and beyond what it is "supposed to be" ... you don't listen to Beethoven or Tchaikovsky because it is "Romantic" and you don't listen to Mozart because it is _________ ... and I'm not sure that you listen to Vivaldi to hear what the whole thing is about that music era ... you just enjoy the music, and its quality.

The term might make sense to help identify a period when the historical events were conducive to the creation of music and other arts, but in this case, the whole thing is so empty, and completely refuses to take a look at all other arts to help make it a valid period of artistic events and talents. Until such a time, I think that the idea of "blahblah rock" is just a bunch of folks getting ...... (well ... politeness ... ) having fun!


Edited by moshkito - February 26 2022 at 05:32
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All I can say is, if you asked me if I liked "progressive rock" in high school back in the mid-70s, I wouldn't have the slightest idea what you were talking about. 

And I'd probably answer with a shrug, "No, I don't think so. I prefer to listen to Floyd, Tull, Yes and Genesis."
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Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

What people do with words almost never follows a definition. "To coin a term" says that someone starts using such term implying a new meaning. After the fact, other people (like ourselves) struggle looking for a definition.


^ This is also my understanding of "to coin a term" phrase. I hope SteveB will read it too.

Edited by enigmatic - February 25 2022 at 18:05
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What people do with words almost never follows a definition. "To coin a term" says that someone starts using such term implying a new meaning. After the fact, other people (like ourselves) struggle looking for a definition.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

[if you can find a magazine article or list from 1969-1974 that has titles like "The 10 best Progressive Rock albums of 1970" or "The best Progressive Rock bands of 1972", then you have concrete usage of the term. Because to have anyone of those titles used in a music media publication, there would have to be a definition.
That's the whole problem, I disagree, IMO a term/label can be coined before a definition.  The lack of Progressive rock polls doesn't prove anything. Hard-rock was coined in early 70s, but there were no hard-rock polls in early 70s. Melody Maker annual polls were called "Readers Pop Polls" to differentiate them from Jazz polls. Do you know who was winning these polls in early 70s, not Pop stars: Genesis, ELP, Yes, Led Zeppelin.

JOHN MENDELSOHN, the columnist from Los Angeles Times on Dec 5, 1969 wrote:
"King Crimson, who opened Wednesday at Hollywood's Whisky, is known in the pop press of its native England as a progressive rock group."
What does it mean? It means that he had a chance to read an editorial in British press about King Crimson and someone from British press called them progressive rock group. Is this not enough to convince you?

I can't go on with this topic forever, I give up. You win!




Edited by enigmatic - February 25 2022 at 16:35
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Originally posted by enigmatic enigmatic wrote:

^ SteveG this is a typical chicken/egg dilemma. What comes first - a label or definition? IMO you can name almost anything without defining it first. "Progressive rock" label was coined without defining it first. We are trying to find out when the label was created, not defined. The definition came later. Weekly music magazines role was NOT to define the genres of music. We would have to look probably in publications (books, encyclopedias).

Or we can just remember what we called this music back in the late 60s. Most people I knew and the late night DJs I was listening to called it progressive rock. If someone elsewhere was calling it something else, then you were calling it something different, no big deal, but I do remember quite clearly discussing this music we called progressive rock, and yes, the term art rock existed as well.

Edited by Easy Money - February 25 2022 at 12:53
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