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How to define and classify "Progressive Rock"?
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    Posted: September 26 2024 at 06:14
Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

I remember that by the mid 1970's record stores such as HMV and Virgin had a whole section called 'Progressive Rock' containing most of what was not commercial sounding or poppy artists. So in there you'd find artists we now classify as prog, and some prog-related & crossover prog, alongside harder rock and blues based artists such as Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Taste, Ten Years After, Chicken Shack, Family, Groundhogs, Traffic etc etc.

Hi,

Even though I can't afford it any more ... I miss, badly, places like Rasputin's Records in Berkeley, which had 2 stores at one time and the jazz/classical one was 2 blocks down the road I think ... I never checked it out at the time, but the main one ... you walked in, and it was like the most intense drug ... you had no idea where you were, or what you are doing here, or what to look at ... that's how big and extensive it was then ... I can not speak for it today, as I have no idea but at least here in Portland, the two big record/cd stores have gone away already ... and they are not even smart enough to be on the Internet trying to sell their stuff.
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I remember that by the mid 1970's record stores such as HMV and Virgin had a whole section called 'Progressive Rock' containing most of what was not commercial sounding or poppy artists. So in there you'd find artists we now classify as prog, and some prog-related & crossover prog, alongside harder rock and blues based artists such as Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Taste, Ten Years After, Chicken Shack, Family, Groundhogs, Traffic etc etc.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


The section of ProgArchives' forum, which is called Prog Music Lounge, uses the term "prog music", and it's of course an interesting question how to define this term. I think that a good definition will be "Progressive Rock and Prog-related genres", and on the top of the front page of ProgArchives' site can be seen which genres ("sub-genres") are today considered to be parts of "prog music".
You should always keep in mind that the term "progressive rock" first appeared as a synonym for almost all underground rock music in late 1960s Britain, characterised by an eclectic sound that blends rock, folk, jazz, classical, soul, and blues elements with often surprising arrangements, odd time signatures, the use of non-standard instruments for rock music, and introspective lyrics.
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The section of ProgArchives' forum, which is called Prog Music Lounge, uses the term "prog music", and it's of course an interesting question how to define this term. I think that a good definition will be "Progressive Rock and Prog-related genres", and on the top of the front page of ProgArchives' site can be seen which genres ("sub-genres") are today considered to be parts of "prog music".
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I've already written in this blog about which sub-genres RYM includes in their definition of Progressive Rock, but that was 
9 months ago and I think it could be interesting to repeat it now:

Avant-Prog, incl. Brutal Prog, RIO and Zeuhl
Canterbury Scene
Neo-Prog
Symphonic Prog

( https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/progressive-rock/ )

It's also important to tell that besides these sub-genre labels, RYM uses "Progressive Rock" as a separate label and quite 
a lot of albums and artists outside these sub-genres are labeled only as "Progressive Rock" - for instance not least 
King Crimson, Van der Graaf Generator and some Jethro Tull and Pink Floyd albums.


Edited by David_D - October 09 2023 at 04:04
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

At this point of time, I'm most into that RYM's definition of Progressive Rock and their use of it (labeling) are the most authoritative ones.

Why do I think so? Well, not least because RYM today is definitely the most used site, also when talking about Progressive Rock alone, and PA being only a much smaller brother which can for instance be illustrated by something I've written in another thread:

"If want to compare PA with RYM with regard to numbers of Prog ratings in general, 156 albums have got at least 1000 ratings on PA, 
while the same amounts to about 600 albums for RYM's "Progressive Rock" and "Progressive Metal" alone which stylistically seen 
is a much narrower perspective than all the albums included on PA.

Methodic explanation:
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

A term, and not least in the world of art and music, will usually be defined and used in different ways. When considering which 
definition to find the most important and influential, you have not least to look at which one is most used. That's at least 
the typical logic of historians.

Anyway, considering the much growing of numbers of Progressive Rock ratings on RYM which shows to me much interest for 
the genre, and the site's definition of the genre, I feel now definitely more at ease on behalf of Progressive Rock.
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Sorry, my obsession is probably to counter fallacies in reasoning, and I will probably come over as arrogant - which I probably am -, but let's play...

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

A term, and not least in the world of art and music, will usually be defined and used in different ways.
That's a platitude. Which is OK, but it is not saying anything, other than going counter to your obstination to privilege the RYM definition of Prog while dismissing PA's definition...

Quote When considering which definition to find the most important and influential, you have not least to look at which one is most used. That's at least the typical logic of historians.
More than once I had the impression that you made statements in domains you clearly don't master. One of them is philosophy and now historiography. You clearly don't know anything about the "logic" of historians. Even in the natural sciences your statement might be much disputed, but I don't think there will be many historians adopting your populist ideology (because that's what it comes down to). It definitely is not the popularity of definitions that move forward the human sciences, but more their efficiency. In historiography there can be very specific definitions that are not used by many others but that still help us to better understand specific (historical) phenomena. Again, it is not about the popularity of a definition, it is about its efficiency and pertinence in order to better understand (and explain) what happened or what a phenomenon is about. And especially when we want to cut back (historical) phenomena to just one popular definition we will be doing a lot of injustice to both history and historiography.

Quote Anyway, considering the much growing of numbers of Progressive Rock ratings on RYM which shows to me much interest for the genre, and the site's definition of the genre, I feel now definitely more at ease on behalf of Progressive Rock.
So now you're talking "on behalf" of Progressive Rock? But apart from that, it is another fallacy to think that from the number of RYM users you could conclude anything about the popularity of the definition of Progressive Rock RYM is giving - I don't think that the RYM users registered because of RYM's definition of Progressive Rock, let alone voted for it (or against it). Your extrapolations are creating realities that don't exist.

Actually, I think you can play better and more clean than this, Kees, but I guess the circumstances are not the best ones.
I wouldn't mind also to hear Lewian's opinion on the matter, but I guess there's the same problem.

Anyway, it was important for me to explain my present position concerning the definition of Progressive Rock, now I'm most into looking at PA as a site for Progressive Music.


Edited by David_D - September 30 2023 at 02:52
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^ I'm going to ignore that with dignity and grace.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

...
One thing, we can agree on here, is that Mosh is "polluting" this thread. LOL


Hi,

Of course ... since you are the GOD of all things progressive, and your musings are so silly ... pollution is only bad when it destroys the idea ... I did not set out to destroy the idea ... it's the thoughts about it that are insane, and not on par with the history of progressive music whatsoever ... your "pollution" is likely more confused than the whole idea and concept of progressive works. You don't even recognize the artistic connections, specially to the early works, which help detail a lot of things ... and your idea and lack of cohesion on the subject of "progressive" anything, is astounding!
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

David has made it his obsession to hammer his disagreement with PA's basic principle of considering and defining the category of "progressive rock" into every thread where he finds an opportunity. This particular thread is a nice play ground for him, so it would be nice if he could keep his musings about definitions here instead of polluting other threads with it.
Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

For the sake of fairness...

The entity you defend is an obnoxiously obsessive being who has been polluting a myriad of threads on this forum for a very long time.
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut. Guess they were both found.

One thing, we can agree on here, is that Mosh has been "polluting" this thread, but it applies on not so few others. LOL


Edited by David_D - October 05 2023 at 04:26
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Sorry, my obsession is probably to counter fallacies in reasoning, and I will probably come over as arrogant - which I probably am -, but let's play...

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

A term, and not least in the world of art and music, will usually be defined and used in different ways.
That's a platitude. Which is OK, but it is not saying anything, other than going counter to your obstination to privilege the RYM definition of Prog while dismissing PA's definition...

Quote When considering which definition to find the most important and influential, you have not least to look at which one is most used. That's at least the typical logic of historians.
More than once I had the impression that you made statements in domains you clearly don't master. One of them is philosophy and now historiography. You clearly don't know anything about the "logic" of historians. Even in the natural sciences your statement might be much disputed, but I don't think there will be many historians adopting your populist ideology (because that's what it comes down to). It definitely is not the popularity of definitions that move forward the human sciences, but more their efficiency. In historiography there can be very specific definitions that are not used by many others but that still help us to better understand specific (historical) phenomena. Again, it is not about the popularity of a definition, it is about its efficiency and pertinence in order to better understand (and explain) what happened or what a phenomenon is about. And especially when we want to cut back (historical) phenomena to just one popular definition we will be doing a lot of injustice to both history and historiography.

Quote Anyway, considering the much growing of numbers of Progressive Rock ratings on RYM which shows to me much interest for the genre, and the site's definition of the genre, I feel now definitely more at ease on behalf of Progressive Rock.
So now you're talking "on behalf" of Progressive Rock? But apart from that, it is another fallacy to think that from the number of RYM users you could conclude anything about the popularity of the definition of Progressive Rock RYM is giving - I don't think that the RYM users registered because of RYM's definition of Progressive Rock, let alone voted for it (or against it). Your extrapolations are creating realities that don't exist.

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A term, and not least in the world of art and music, will usually be defined and used in different ways. When considering which 
definition to find the most important and influential, you have not least to look at which one is most used. That's at least 
the typical logic of historians.

Anyway, considering the much growing of numbers of Progressive Rock ratings on RYM which shows to me much interest for 
the genre, and the site's definition of the genre, I feel now definitely more at ease on behalf of Progressive Rock.



Edited by David_D - September 28 2023 at 08:07
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ Hehe. Not sure if it is about fairness and Pedro has his obsessions too, but sometimes he also says some sensible things, as does David, BTW...

Yeah. With the help of my post, it now becomes fair. Wink
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^ Hehe. Not sure if it is about fairness and Pedro has his obsessions too, but sometimes he also says some sensible things, as does David, BTW...

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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

David has made it his obsession to hammer his disagreement with PA's basic principle of considering and defining the category of "progressive rock" into every thread where he finds an opportunity. This particular thread is a nice play ground for him, so it would be nice if he could keep his musings about definitions here instead of polluting other threads with it.
For the sake of fairness...

The entity you defend is an obnoxiously obsessive being who has been polluting a myriad of threads on this forum for a very long time.

Snakily bellitling every opinion/stance "it" disagrees with, by commencing its twaddles with either, "I'm not sure if...", or, "It's sad that...", "Sadly, some folks think that..." etc.

Also, let's not forget about how things are about MUSIC, not songs... and countless twaddles like that, which are repeated by that critter at every opportunity.
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

No, Pedro is not missing the point, he is hitting the nail on his head: David claims that RYM's definition of progressive rock is more authoritative because it has a larger user base than PA. This is a rather absurd - if not dangerous - way of reasoning, as if statistics could procure authority. Tools (statistics)/numbers have no and procure no authority, it is the one who uses or abuses them who might have that authority (I personally consider the Encyclopedia Britannica more authoritative than Wikipedia because it is written by experts and not by "everybody").

It is also fallacious, because RYM and PA have been built upon different grounds: the first a general music database where progressive rock is just a sub-genre like many other genres, where the second takes this sub-genre as the main category and starts its reasoning regarding sub-genres from there (and including sub-genres that elsewhere wouldn't be considered prog). This, of course is a very different entry point into considering music under that specific umbrella.

David has made it his obsession to hammer his disagreement with PA's basic principle of considering and defining the category of "progressive rock" into every thread where he finds an opportunity. This particular thread is a nice play ground for him, so it would be nice if he could keep his musings about definitions here instead of polluting other threads with it.

ClapThumbs Up


Edited by Cristi - September 28 2023 at 05:20
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