Barbara Dennerlein for jazz-rock/fusion |
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Topic: Barbara Dennerlein for jazz-rock/fusion Posted: February 14 2020 at 09:53 |
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I'm sorry if you thought that the suggestion is still up for discussion till the end of time but it is not, we have heard enough of her work and didn't find something that would make us formally evaluate her. Feel free to appreciate her in her own separate thread or something but I'm closing this one for good.
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: February 14 2020 at 08:35 | |
Barbara Dennerlein can even sound like hard rock: |
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: February 13 2020 at 21:50 | |
here is Barbara Dennerlein being extremely experimental on the pipe organ: |
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: February 13 2020 at 20:30 | |
another quote from an an article in which Barbara Dennerlein is mentioned (Belles of the B3: Scott, Tsuruga and Dennerlein). highlights by me again. German organist Barbara Dennerlein has had a distinguished career
successfully taking her B3 to places where it was previously unwelcome.
Her compositions and style have braved a path for her instrument that
doesn't follow the norm. As such, Change of Pace is much more
than its title implies and is as much kin to Gershwin as it is to
organist Keith Emerson's more adventurous works with The Nice and
Emerson, Lake & Palmer. That said, Dennerlein's awesome technique
and compositional skills do break new musical ground as she exquisitely
blends her B3 trio, which includes saxophonist Peter Lehel and
drummer/percussionist Daniel Messina, into the State Philharmonic
Orchestra of Rhineland-Palatinate conducted by Bernd Ruf. The resultant
sound, due in some part to her expert use of synthesizers, thrills as
only a musical aggregation of this magnitude could. The strings are
glorious, the brass voicings superb and the winds are joyous as
Dennerlein's organ meets the philharmonic as equal partner. Recorded
live, five extended compositions artfully combine classical, jazz and
rock using intricate tempos, quick changes, mood shifts and more than a
hint of exoticism to present rhapsodic stylistic wholes. This is a major
release by one of the B3's foremost proponents. and here a link to the album in question: this album is definitely innovative
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
Posted: February 03 2020 at 08:27 | |
I wouldn't be wasting your inestimable energy on persuading me, it's the genre team(s) you have to convince
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10266 |
Posted: February 03 2020 at 08:18 | |
All the highlighted passages in the reviews Jean cited in her original post are about her being innovative, like "rewriting the rulebook" or "breaking the mold". If you actually do a Google search for Barbara Dennerlein in combination with the word "innovative" you will find countless websites. This passage is taken from a review of her album "My Moments": Perhaps only once in a generation or two, a musician emerges
whose talent, skill and innovation takes virtuosity on their chosen
instrument to a level never seen or heard before. Barbara Dennerlein is
such a musician, and the organ, both the Hammond B3 and the Pipe Organ,
are her instruments. The full review can be found here: https://tinyurl.com/u73vma7 As to your question: Maybe not, but the question is missing the point. The important thing is that at some time the artist in question definitely was innovative. Also Barbara continued to stay innovative over the years. You just have to read an online biography of her to become aware of that. Or listen to her albums without a prejudiced ear.
Edited by BaldFriede - February 03 2020 at 08:29 |
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
Posted: February 03 2020 at 07:53 | |
Maybe I missed the memo advising that most interesting has been rebranded highly innovative. Which begs the question: would an artist considered as either innovative or interesting 40 years ago, still fulfill those descriptions now? I can quote you loads of people who disagree with my opinions on all
manner of topics but it wouldn't change those opinions in the slightest.
Hell, there are sufficient dissenters to have created entire websites
dedicated to a flat earth, white supremacy, homophobia, christian
fundamentalism and even Manchester United ffs. (does published opinion equate to credible opinion from your perspective?) If so, that simply reinforces my suspicion that you clearly don't trust your own judgement and by extrapolation, need the reinforcement of others to validate your opinions)
Edited by ExittheLemming - February 03 2020 at 08:17 |
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10266 |
Posted: February 02 2020 at 11:17 | |
Funny how someone who is not highly innovative can be called "the most interesting organist to emerge during the 80s", isn't it? Jean highlighted lots of quotes from reviews of her where is called exactly that which you doubt.
Edited by BaldFriede - February 02 2020 at 11:20 |
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15316 |
Posted: February 02 2020 at 07:27 | |
^ i admire your command of language and tenacity. A rabid Dennerlein fan you are! You are correct in your assessment of the definitions of jazz-rock / fusion etc. The thing is we only add THE MOST PROGRESSIVE of fusion artists NOT EVERY FUSION ARTIST. While her fusion is clearly laced with rock, it's not progressive rock. I did check out a couple albums so far and i have not heard anything to shoot it into the prog-o-sphere. We have rejected artists with much more fusion qualities than Barbara. I personally have suggested many artists that i felt should have been here but were rejected by the rest of the team based on the not proggy enough. It is a good policy otherwise we'd have to add hundreds of artists who may have technically had a few fusion albums but weren't primarily focused upon it. I agree that some artists that were included in the early days of the site probably shouldn't have been and hopefully a great culling will occur but most likely not. So on behalf of the team, i'm sorry but i don't think she is progressive rock oriented enough. A talented and admirable artist for sure and i thank your for making me aware of her :)
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10266 |
Posted: February 02 2020 at 03:19 | |
I think the differing opinions here are based on a misunderstanding. Jean certainly would not want to have Barbara Dennerlein included into jazz-rock; that she clearly isn't. However, the category in question is NOT called "Jazz-Rock" but "Jazz-Rock/Fusion". This seems to suggest that there is a difference between the two, though they are often used synonymously. To add to the confusion Wikipedia offers neither term but instead "Jazz Fusion" and defines it like this: "Jazz fusion (also known as fusion)[1] is a music genre that developed in the late 1960s when musicians combined jazz harmony and improvisation with rock music, funk, and rhythm and blues.
Electric guitars, amplifiers, and keyboards that were popular in rock
and roll started to be used by jazz musicians, particularly those who
had grown up listening to rock and roll.
Jazz fusion arrangements vary in complexity. Some employ groove-based vamps fixed to a single key or a single chord with a simple, repeated melody. Others use elaborate chord progressions, unconventional time signatures, or melodies with counter-melodies. These arrangements, whether simple or complex, typically include improvised sections that can vary in length, much like in other forms of jazz. As with jazz, jazz fusion employs brass and woodwind instruments such as trumpet and saxophone, but other instruments often substitute for these. A jazz fusion band is less likely to use piano and double bass, and more likely to use electric guitar, synthesizers and bass guitar. The term "jazz rock" is sometimes used as a synonym for "jazz fusion" and for music performed by late 1960s and 1970s-era rock bands that added jazz elements to their music. After a decade of popularity during the 1970s, fusion expanded its improvisatory and experimental approaches through the 1980s in parallel with the development of a radio-friendly style called smooth jazz. Experimentation continued in the 1990s and 2000s. Fusion albums, even those that are made by the same group or artist, may include a variety of musical styles. Rather than being a codified musical style, fusion can be viewed as a musical tradition or approach." Taking that definition as reference Barbara Dennerlein does in my opinion certainly qualify because both Funk and Rhythm and Blues are very prominent in her music (as well as for example Latin, Carribean or even Salsa). And these passages "Others use
elaborate chord progressions, unconventional time signatures, or
melodies with counter-melodies. These arrangements, whether simple or
complex, typically include improvised sections that can vary in length,
much like in other forms of jazz" and "Rather than being a codified musical style, fusion
can be viewed as a musical tradition or approach" most definitely fit her music. Rock is not so much a characteristic of her music, though there are exceptions like "Wow!" from "Hot Stuff" (she once explained in an interview that it was specifically written for her appearance on a German TV-program called "Ohne Filter" meaning "Without Filter"; she thought she needed at least one rock number for that) or the Rolling Stones cover "Satisfaction" from "Outhipped". Edited by BaldFriede - February 02 2020 at 03:49 |
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
Posted: February 02 2020 at 01:24 | |
If the pair of you were lobbying the EU to outlaw gravity, I suspect you have the capacity to wear down even the most obdurate commissioners into an exhausted and exasperated acquiescence. I own and enjoy 4 Dennerlein CD's, including Hot Stuff which is funky blues/hard bop and Junkanoo where yes, the Bahamian inspired percussion certainly lends the music an exotic texture but neither are jazz rock/fusion albums to my ears. (Keith Emerson's Honky solo album from 16 years previously, also exploits this ethnic rhythmic element so it's hardly unprecedented in either Jazz or Rock) That said, there may be other BD albums I haven't heard which do qualify. I'm not sure why use of a MIDI modded Hammond or virtuosity on bass foot-pedals has anything to do with inclusion criteria? For me she's a plain vanilla post bop jazz
musician who occasionally reciprocates her fusion and classical
influences. The Jazz Rock/Fusion genre is by definition, a very broad church but that's principally because Jazz has been fused with practically every other genre since the dawn of time and it should be self evident that not all the results are eligible for inclusion on PA. The PA definition also states that if an artist doesn't have elements of Progressive Rock in their music they would have to represent the most forward-looking and progressive element in their genre. I'm not remotely convinced Dennerlein would tick either box.
Edited by ExittheLemming - February 02 2020 at 05:36 |
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
Posted: February 02 2020 at 00:59 | |
Just wanted to second George’s opinion here. I hear a jazz musician making jazz music that occasionally veers into other styles...but never enough to call it anything other than jazz. At least to my ears. Said another way: before we think about artists like Dennerlein we already have jazz artists who are far closer to fusion than she ever was. Pharoah Sanders, Herbie Mann, Sun Ra, John Coltrane and so forth. It quickly gets to be a neverending list of jazz artists who all are widely known and respected as jazz artists..shoehorned into an odd prog rock connotation... and we effectively end up with a jazz category that starts looking like JMA.
Then again jazz is brilliant and doesn’t exactly need to be anything other in order to woo the pants off of me Based on what I’ve checked out so far I am pretty sure I will be ordering Orgelspiele. Oh and before I end: Never ever conflate evaluations over PA with quality control! Those are two very different things. |
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: February 01 2020 at 15:47 | |
this is a link to Barbara Dennerlein's entry in the Jazz Archives: please note that the musical styles she is listed for are "Soul Jazz / Hard Bop / Fusion / Third Stream / Post-Fusion Contemporary / Post Bop / Big Band" and 4 of her albums ("Orgelspiele", "Hot Stuff", "That's Me" and "Take Off") are listed as "fusion" there
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: February 01 2020 at 14:32 | |
I totally agree! the Soft Heap album has almost no rock components, but there are plenty in "Outhipped"
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Posted: February 01 2020 at 14:16 | |
Feel free to disagree, but I'm not about to waste my time or other volunteers time on this suggestion (unless they explicitly want to grab it, though I can tell odds are not good from the start). Also it frankly says later in the definition:
Deciding which fusion is not progressive and which is, is a decision on our part, and I can't help it if I hear different things in Soft Heap and something like 'Outhipped', both are called as fusion albums but I see them as miles apart.
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: February 01 2020 at 13:13 | |
I still disagree. while she made a lot of albums that are not jazz-rock/ fusion at all (like many artists that are in that genre on this site) her string of albums with guitarist Mitch Watkins (there are 6 of them) do in my opinion all at least fall partially into that genre. Watkins brought a lot of rock into her music. allow me to cite the definition for the genre on this site, highlighting why I am for the inclusion of Barbara Dennerlein: Jazz Rock/Fusion definition
Only the most progressive of nu jazz, jazz-rock and fusion artists are listed on Progarchives, although accceptability or not here may vary from person to person. All artists have elements of progressive rock in their music (e.g. Jean Luc Ponty, Bill Bruford or David Sancious) or they represent the most forward-looking and progressive element in their genre (e.g. Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock or Weather Report). It should be noted that those many Canterbury jazz rock fusion bands, e.g. Soft Machine, Soft Works, Soft Heap, Soft Machine Legacy, Gilgamesh etc. are to be found under the CANTERBURY heading in Prog Archives. I think all this definitely merits the inclusion of Barbara Dennerlein. especially in view of this band, who is much less on the rock side of things than Barbara Dennerlein, and yet they are in the archives: compared to Soft Heap Barbara Dennerlein is rock pure. mark that I am not questioning the inclusion of Soft Heap; I am all for their inclusion. but you won't find any trace of rock in their albums Edited by BaldJean - February 01 2020 at 13:35 |
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Posted: February 01 2020 at 13:03 | |
She doesn't have to be in one genre, but it is closer to jazz and hard bop than progressive rock, which is the one thing this site is archiving. And that is the only thing that matters, an artist doesn't have to be innovative or even good at all to get accepted on the site.
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: February 01 2020 at 12:54 | |
ahem. an artist does not have to be all in one genre to be included. on the contrary, the more an artist gets out of the pigeonhole of "genre" the more progressive he/she is. Barbara Dennerlein is in a genre of her own and most definitely an innovator
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Posted: February 01 2020 at 12:47 | |
Around 27 albums, out of which I'm hearing mostly 2 or 3 records that could be categorized as fusion, and out of those I'm not hearing much of fusion that we use as a basis for inclusion into our progressive rock related fusion genre. So it's not gonna fly, sorry.
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: February 01 2020 at 12:17 | |
the way: now I know why Barbara Dennerlein is such an awesome player: she is not human, she is a Vulcan. just look at her ears! caught you, Dennerlein. confess! Edited by BaldJean - February 01 2020 at 12:35 |
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