Pirated again ! |
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2839 |
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Posted: June 01 2019 at 04:10 |
PS Sorry, Barbu, cross post there, wasn't directed at you. ;-)
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2839 |
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Not so much "making money" as "avoiding being pirated".
The clue being in the title. |
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Jaketejas
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 27 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1988 |
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Making $ for your music nowadays? BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Let me know how that works out for you.
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Barbu
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 09 2005 Location: infinity Status: Offline Points: 30850 |
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My comment was not directed at you Davesax and I agree with your opinion on the subject.
Edited by Barbu - May 30 2019 at 10:17 |
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2839 |
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I know. I honestly don't want the money, it's not massively important. I've got a day job.
Conversely, I don't want to be ripped off. "Bit of professional respect". |
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Barbu
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 09 2005 Location: infinity Status: Offline Points: 30850 |
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^^ Yeah, I discovered a lot of music I would never have bought (and I would be a lot more richer today) when I used to steal it on napster way back when, but that argument has no value for those who wan't the cash cash cash right away.
Edited by Barbu - May 30 2019 at 10:10 |
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2839 |
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Well, one way of getting a fan !! ;-)
Thing is, one pirated download probably doesn't equal one lost sale, but if and when a lawyer gets hold of it, it's in their interest to mention that that's the case. And difficult to disprove. ;-)
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handwrist
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 19 2019 Location: Lisbon Status: Offline Points: 135 |
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I really don't believe that each pirated download = lost sale, but it's impossible to know for sure of course. I do know however that at least one guy that found my music on one of these Russian sites that put music for free actually ended up becoming a fan enough that he has bought every album of mine since (including some obscure stuff I published on another channel), including physical ones, and it's one of my most loyal fans to this day. And perhaps he would have never heard of me if not for the pirates. And I doubt this is a one-case situation. Sometimes good can come out of evil, I believe.
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Barbu
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 09 2005 Location: infinity Status: Offline Points: 30850 |
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Music stealers? No need to execute them, they will rot in hell anyway.
but make sure they suffer down here...in a very slow and endless way. |
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2839 |
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Well, that's better. Handwrist, I think you might have got the wrong impression of this.
Let me just mention two things - "entitlement mentality". Well, a rough calculation of the value of downloads I've missed out on is about $5,000 - $7,500. To which, sorry, I was actually entitled. "Faux moral superiority" - remove the faux, please. I don't steal anything off music sites, lots of people do. I'll also just say, nope, not superiority, just moral. Unfortunately - as you say, generational thing, mid 50's here, I seem to have a different view than people many years younger. But that doesn't mean to say that they're right and I'm wrong. Legally, I'm actually right, sorry. As for setting up a Bandcamp account, etc, nope, I'm not that important a musician. But there's the general principle behind it. People do go off and clone Bandcamp accounts. They do go off, rip music off sites and put it up either for free or for a paid download, and it doesn't just affect small artists - big ones as well. It's morally and legally wrong. I've had radio play where someone will say "You can forget any royalty payments, they're worth sh*t here in Belgium". Unfair ? Do something about it. As for self righteous and delusional, no. Sorry, I'm right on behalf of all musicians, who are honestly getting ripped off. Like you, I'm not in it for the money, I'm honestly in it for the music. I'd charge nothing or very little for a download and produce CDs if there was actual evidence that those CDs would sell, but most people want something for nothing, which is a very sad state of affairs. It'll kill music. As I said, musicians will go off jamming with other musicians instead and will just stop releasing music - whilst a lot may pay for free, few have the time to recoup money by gigging - which rarely breaks even. I'm very happy to release music for free or low cost - but I'm not happy to be ripped off, or to see any fellow musician ripped off. It's a really sad state of affairs and I do wish you luck and all the best with your music, which I genuinely enjoyed. I also seriously hope - honestly - that you don't wake up one day to realise you've been ripped off for about $5k. |
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handwrist
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 19 2019 Location: Lisbon Status: Offline Points: 135 |
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Man, now I feel bad for being so mean. Sorry dude. And thanks. I'm going to keep it on 'pay what you want' though, it's just my style.
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2839 |
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As a PS to Handwrist: just listened and your music is good enough to charge money for. You may not want to, personal choice, but you are good enough. People may not buy it, but that's nothing to do with copyright law or piracy or arbitrary internet executions. ;-)
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handwrist
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 19 2019 Location: Lisbon Status: Offline Points: 135 |
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Dude, chill. I am not condoning piracy, and I am well aware of copyright laws and what they mean. You do what you want. I actually went back and read the whole thread and I'm glad I did because it's comedy gold, mostly because of your entitled tone and lack of self awareness - you got called out for it and just doubled down - hilarious. You give this issue way too much importance, while claiming you don't: it's not about the money, it's not about the audience, it's about... what exactly? Respect? Again, funny. Seeking respect on the internet... different generation I guess. If you want to go around reporting sites and whatnot and restrict your music distribution online, or even stop releasing stuff at all and just play for the fun of it, that's fine. More than fine, great. What rubs people the wrong way is the entitlement mentality and faux moral superiority - "argh, I'm the only one who knows the law, everyone who disagrees with me must be completely ignorant, argh". Your last sentence is great example of this: why would I waste my time setting up a bandcamp to clone your music? You're NOT important and your music is not that great (sorry, I listened to a few tracks on bandcamp without tossing you a buck.. ups). I saw this thread and it reminded me of when I found these piracy sites the first time - just wanted to share my impression of it, not get into a fruitless debate with a self-righteous and delusional guy. But oh well, if you take anything from my reply it should be this: I am laughing at you.
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2839 |
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Sorry, Handwrist, it's a ridiculous non-argument. No one is going to "shut down the internet" or "execute " anyone.
You don't seem to understand that intellectual property is protected all over the world by international copyright agreements. To say that just a physical object has value is stupid- behind every physical object is an idea. You don't copyright a CD, you copyright the music. Music has no physical presence. It's intellectual property. Actually, there IS a solution, if you read the thread. Google et al have strict copyright laws. I've put several breach of copyright complaints in against sites who have illegally put my whole discography up. Google then serve the site a breach of copyright order: if the music is not taken down, Google remove their site from their search engines. This is usually enough to force a site to divest themselves of your illegally held music. Since you're all ears, is that a solution ? So it's not wasting time and money, music piracy IS illegal, it's not a moral issue and your personal opinion seems to be based on zero knowledge of the law, an inability to reconcile your personal circumstances with the big picture and a seeming incapacity to conduct a logical, structured argument or to have the courtesy to read a thread before posting. Still all ears ? If you don't believe that's the case, feel free to set up another Bandcamp account and clone all my music. We can discuss it in court.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10616 |
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Re handwrist: "Should we legislate morality".
Most laws do legislate morality, thats why things like murder, rape, kidnapping, theft, robbery etc are illegal, because we do legislate morality. Edited by Easy Money - May 29 2019 at 13:04 |
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
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handwrist
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 19 2019 Location: Lisbon Status: Offline Points: 135 |
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I am looking at the big picture, hence the questions I asked:
So what is the solution? Shut down the internet? Execute people who copy and share files? How do you do this across borders? It might be morally wrong, but should we legislate morality? Complaining about something when you know there is no solution is just wasting time and energy. So, do you have a solution? Or are you just complaining to complain? I'm all ears.
Edited by handwrist - May 29 2019 at 11:46 |
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2839 |
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"I think you can only truly own something if it has a physical existence (CD, vinyl, whatever). Also if you take the idea that you can own non-physical things, like mp3 files or pdfs, to its logical conclusion, it becomes absurd"
It's called COPYRIGHT..... "intellectual property"........ "Speaking for myself......." Exactly.
Big picture ? |
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handwrist
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 19 2019 Location: Lisbon Status: Offline Points: 135 |
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So what is the solution? Shut down the internet? Execute people who copy and share files? How do you do this across borders? I honestly don't see any other way. I don't think copying and sharing is stealing - when people share a copy of one of my tracks I don't lose my copy. I think you can only truly own something if it has a physical existence (CD, vinyl, whatever). Also if you take the idea that you can own non-physical things, like mp3 files or pdfs, to its logical conclusion, it becomes absurd. Imagine I come up with a new recipe of lasagna. If I share the recipe and someone decides to try it out, do they owe me royalties? How am I going to collect them? Should I go to court and give lawyers a bunch of money to force the guy who is using my recipe to pay me every time someone orders that at his restaurant? It might be morally wrong, but should we legislate morality? I think that would be a nightmare, because not everyone has the same set of moral principles. Speaking for myself, I make music because I love to do it and every time I was hired to make music I hated it. Somehow bringing that monetary reward to the forefront kills it for me. So I give it away for free, because it's either that or keeping it to myself. I end up selling a few CDs, a few downloads, a few vinyls. I doubt if I wanted to sell only the physical stuff without putting it on the net I would have even got anyone to listen to my music outside of my small circle. For bands who tour, that's how they will have to make their money. And the truth is the time when you made music off of physical records was an anomaly, for the majority of human existence, musicians made their money through patronage (still possible today) or through touring (minstrels, big bands, etc). Should people be more educated to appreciate art and support artists? absolutely. But there really is no alternative to the current system without nuking it entirely and getting rid of the internet. Also will that happen? Nope. Do I want it to happen? Nope.
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Quinino
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 26 2011 Location: Portugal Status: Offline Points: 3654 |
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... as Freedom and Democracy are globally also in peril, I'm (very) afraid.
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2839 |
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Forgot to mention seven vintage saxes in the price as well. ;-)
On top of that - if you put "personal circumstances" aside, look at the bigger picture. If you condone piracy of intellectual property, then that's all the Arts stuffed. Any books, music, film, doesn't become the property of the artist, it gets sold or given away by nothing by pirates. Not only is this morally wrong, but it removes the incentive of artists to produce work. Someone might have a MIDI keyboard and a few VSTs, others may spend months and thousands putting music - or art - or a book together. If they don't get fairly financially compensated, not many will either want to work for nothing or be economically capable of doing so. So they do something else.
So what is being advocated is, essentially, the death of music. As we know, small, specialised musicians with lesser audiences will go first. I see on this site "I always pay for music" and my Bandcamp analytics tell me quite another thing. Frankly, the music scene has become a freeloaders' paradise: the retort is "If you were a proper musician, you'd play for nothing", to which my answer is "In a pig's eye, Sir, and if you were a proper fan, you'd support musicians properly." With piracy and fans just hoovering up free downloads - look at the free downloads thread, nothing on it any more - music will die. Simple as that. |
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