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Cristi 
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Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
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 Topic: Second tier bands
Posted: March 21 2018 at 06:51 |
again with the tiers
Renaissance out of these
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Man With Hat
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Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team
Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
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Posted: February 01 2018 at 15:21 |
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GonG
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Posted: January 29 2018 at 12:21 |
 The Dark Elf wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
^It's funny how people are still talking about that upset to this day. I didn't watch it on tv but I remember when it happened. It was a real WTF moment for most music fans. Anyway, I'm sure Ian thought it was amusing but I see no evidence that he is still laughing at that or that he ever was. |
Although it was amusing to listen to band members from Metallica bitch and moan about And Justice For All losing to Crest of a Knave, what is absolutely hilarious is that one of Metallica's greatest achievements actually lost to what most people consider to be Tull's 12th or 13th best album. I certainly wouldn't put CoaK on the same level as anything Tull released from 1969 to 1979.
It is a sobering thought about the decline of music in the 80s when you consider albums like Aqualung, Thick as a Brick or even Songs from the Wood were not even up for Grammys, given the fierce competition and the amount of great albums released during that era. As a matter of fact, no hard rock or prog albums were even nominated back in 1971 or 72, or 1977 for that matter.
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Well, it's true that Jethro Tull were a bit of a wild card when their name came up at the grammys in 1989. I think a big part of it had to do with the people who did the voting who were mostly older corporate guys who weren't up on current hard rock and metal at the time. I even read this somewhere. So it kind of makes sense. They actually made hard rock and metal two separate categories the following year probably mostly because of this incident. But yeah it may as well have been Yes who won that year for Big Generator(released the same year as CoaK). I like Coak quite a bit and think it's better than most of the later albums I have heard(except for Roots to Branches). Is it on the level of their seventies albums? Well, it's maybe better than stormwatch or Too old to rock n roll... but that's about it. I'm not a metallica expert so I can't say much about their albums. I have master of puppets and like it but haven't heard any of the others.
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 29 2018 at 12:22
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
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Points: 14742
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Posted: January 28 2018 at 16:37 |
Icarium wrote:
Gentle Giant was an influence on Nik Kershaw and Tears for Fears |
What!? I have a weak spot for both of these but I never heard any GG in them (which may be for the better  ). Surely they influenced Cardiacs whom I love to pieces.
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: January 28 2018 at 12:13 |
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
^It's funny how people are still talking about that upset to this day. I didn't watch it on tv but I remember when it happened. It was a real WTF moment for most music fans. Anyway, I'm sure Ian thought it was amusing but I see no evidence that he is still laughing at that or that he ever was. |
Although it was amusing to listen to band members from Metallica bitch and moan about And Justice For All losing to Crest of a Knave, what is absolutely hilarious is that one of Metallica's greatest achievements actually lost to what most people consider to be Tull's 12th or 13th best album. I certainly wouldn't put CoaK on the same level as anything Tull released from 1969 to 1979.
It is a sobering thought about the decline of music in the 80s when you consider albums like Aqualung, Thick as a Brick or even Songs from the Wood were not even up for Grammys, given the fierce competition and the amount of great albums released during that era. As a matter of fact, no hard rock or prog albums were even nominated back in 1971 or 72, or 1977 for that matter.
Edited by The Dark Elf - January 28 2018 at 12:16
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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AFlowerKingCrimson
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
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Posted: January 28 2018 at 10:10 |
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^It's funny how people are still talking about that upset to this day. I didn't watch it on tv but I remember when it happened. It was a real WTF moment for most music fans. Anyway, I'm sure Ian thought it was amusing but I see no evidence that he is still laughing at that or that he ever was.
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 28 2018 at 10:11
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The.Crimson.King
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Posted: January 28 2018 at 09:54 |
Frenetic Zetetic wrote:
I think a LOT of people - not just prog fans - forget how successful and how large of an appeal Tull had/still has. Didn't they erroneously win a metal award over Metallica in the late 80's? Their reach was undeniable. While tons of people know who YES and GENESIS are, I'd be willing to be more of them actually heard Tull over those two. |
Yes, Tull's 'Crest of a Knave' won the new category "Best Hard Rock/Heavy Metal Recording" grammy in 1989. Metallica fans are still pissed off and Ian is still laughing about it  |
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Mortte
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Joined: November 11 2016
Location: Finland
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Posted: January 28 2018 at 04:13 |
Frenetic Zetetic wrote:
I think a LOT of people - not just prog fans - forget how successful and how large of an appeal Tull had/still has. Didn't they erroneously win a metal award over Metallica in the late 80's? Their reach was undeniable. While tons of people know who YES and GENESIS are, I'd be willing to be more of them actually heard Tull over those two. |
Agree fully! Jethro is to me also much greater than Genesis or Yes.
Frenetic Zetetic wrote:
This is exactly why GG is my personal favorite band (and by proxy, prog rock band) of all time. They're kind of still an anomaly in terms of who they inspire, despite having, as the next poster mentions, hooked some serious up and comer from the 80's (Tears for Fears, etc).
While they never charted or reached the level of commercial success (not even the same ballpark) as Yes, Genesis, etc - Derek did go on to become a record executive and signed some of the biggest selling bands of the 80's (Bon Jovi, Cinderella, dude even signed Dream Theater and Pantera! FTW!); in my humble opinion THAT'S a level of success in itself, something tangential to a traditional path in the music business, just like Gentle Giant's existence itself was! Personal opinion, of course. |
Agree again. I think the massive popularity of GG in todayīs proglisteners also prove that. I personally donīt like any of those bands you mention, so this also increase my understanding, why GG has never hit me.
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Frenetic Zetetic
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Posted: January 28 2018 at 03:18 |
The.Crimson.King wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Actually, Tull sold a lot more albums than ELP did in the 70s. People tend to forget ELP never had a platinum selling album or a #1 in the U.S., whereas Tull's Aqualung went 3x platinum, and even M.U. their first greatest hits album also went platinum. TAAB and A Passion Play also went to #1 in the States. |
While they both had massive 1969-70 radio hits in Living in the Past & Lucky Man, back in the 70's in the SF bay area, Tull was much bigger than ELP. I think it was because Tull's audience included not only prog fans, but also hard rock fans in a way ELP could never reach. Tull also regularly toured through the bay area every single year from '70 to '79 (except '74) whereas ELP rarely came through ('71, '72 and '77)...
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I think a LOT of people - not just prog fans - forget how successful and how large of an appeal Tull had/still has. Didn't they erroneously win a metal award over Metallica in the late 80's? Their reach was undeniable. While tons of people know who YES and GENESIS are, I'd be willing to be more of them actually heard Tull over those two.
Mortte wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
In terms of success, Gentle Giant were no more successful than Renaissance and never had a hit single (albeit that was a pop song) either. Rather, the weight of their work has given them a measure of influence Renaissance cannot lay claim to. Genesis had reached around Ren's level of charting success in the US by the time of Lamb and with Trick of the Tail got to 31. Another thing is Genesis went gold with some of their albums in US which Renaissance failed to achieve. And of course, Genesis were hugely successful in the UK where Renaissance had less success than in the US. Yeah, Yes, Floyd and ELP in the top tier and KC, Genesis, JT a rung below. GG and VDGG lacked commercial success but commanded influence. The bands in your poll largely lack both influence and success. |
If I understand right, what you mean about influence, I totally disagree with you. I think Caravan, Renaissance, Gong and Strawbs have been much more influental bands than Gentle Giant. I know Gentle Giant members were sour because they didnīt get at least the commercial succees they though they deserved then. I have never heard anything really great about Gentle Giant music and I understand fully, why they havenīt got as much success as for example Pink Floyd, Genesis, Jethro Tull and Yes. Yes, I think Gentle Giant influenced a lot neoprog, but I donīt like neoprog at all. I think those bands I mentioned developed prog into much greater direction. This is of course just my opinion and people here has right to love Gentle Giant as much as they want, itīs nothing away from me. |
This is exactly why GG is my personal favorite band (and by proxy, prog rock band) of all time. They're kind of still an anomaly in terms of who they inspire, despite having, as the next poster mentions, hooked some serious up and comer from the 80's (Tears for Fears, etc).
While they never charted or reached the level of commercial success (not even the same ballpark) as Yes, Genesis, etc - Derek did go on to become a record executive and signed some of the biggest selling bands of the 80's (Bon Jovi, Cinderella, dude even signed Dream Theater and Pantera! FTW!); in my humble opinion THAT'S a level of success in itself, something tangential to a traditional path in the music business, just like Gentle Giant's existence itself was! Personal opinion, of course.
Edited by Frenetic Zetetic - January 28 2018 at 03:19
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"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Icarium
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Posted: January 28 2018 at 01:18 |
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Gentle Giant was an influence on Nik Kershaw and Tears for Fears
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Mortte
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 11 2016
Location: Finland
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Points: 5538
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Posted: January 27 2018 at 22:59 |
rogerthat wrote:
In terms of success, Gentle Giant were no more successful than Renaissance and never had a hit single (albeit that was a pop song) either. Rather, the weight of their work has given them a measure of influence Renaissance cannot lay claim to. Genesis had reached around Ren's level of charting success in the US by the time of Lamb and with Trick of the Tail got to 31. Another thing is Genesis went gold with some of their albums in US which Renaissance failed to achieve. And of course, Genesis were hugely successful in the UK where Renaissance had less success than in the US. Yeah, Yes, Floyd and ELP in the top tier and KC, Genesis, JT a rung below. GG and VDGG lacked commercial success but commanded influence. The bands in your poll largely lack both influence and success. |
If I understand right, what you mean about influence, I totally disagree with you. I think Caravan, Renaissance, Gong and Strawbs have been much more influental bands than Gentle Giant. I know Gentle Giant members were sour because they didnīt get at least the commercial succees they though they deserved then. I have never heard anything really great about Gentle Giant music and I understand fully, why they havenīt got as much success as for example Pink Floyd, Genesis, Jethro Tull and Yes. Yes, I think Gentle Giant influenced a lot neoprog, but I donīt like neoprog at all. I think those bands I mentioned developed prog into much greater direction. This is of course just my opinion and people here has right to love Gentle Giant as much as they want, itīs nothing away from me.
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2013
Location: WA
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Points: 4596
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Posted: January 27 2018 at 22:21 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Actually, Tull sold a lot more albums than ELP did in the 70s. People tend to forget ELP never had a platinum selling album or a #1 in the U.S., whereas Tull's Aqualung went 3x platinum, and even M.U. their first greatest hits album also went platinum. TAAB and A Passion Play also went to #1 in the States. |
While they both had massive 1969-70 radio hits in Living in the Past & Lucky Man, back in the 70's in the SF bay area, Tull was much bigger than ELP. I think it was because Tull's audience included not only prog fans, but also hard rock fans in a way ELP could never reach. Tull also regularly toured through the bay area every single year from '70 to '79 (except '74) whereas ELP rarely came through ('71, '72 and '77)...
Edited by The.Crimson.King - January 27 2018 at 22:23
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: January 27 2018 at 21:10 |
rogerthat wrote:
Yeah, Yes, Floyd and ELP in the top tier and KC, Genesis, JT a rung below. GG and VDGG lacked commercial success but commanded influence. The bands in your poll largely lack both influence and success. |
Actually, Tull sold a lot more albums than ELP did in the 70s. People tend to forget ELP never had a platinum selling album or a #1 in the U.S., whereas Tull's Aqualung went 3x platinum, and even M.U. their first greatest hits album also went platinum. TAAB and A Passion Play also went to #1 in the States.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Posted: January 27 2018 at 20:14 |
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ that is interesting actually. I wasn't around to experience prog in its heyday so the context of the band's popularity as relative to how they are perceived today is interesting actually. I know Pink Floyd, Yes and ELP were popular but who else actually was? In real prog terms that is (not The Who, Led Zep or any other prog related) |
I've always been interested in charts and statistics and things like that. Who else was? Well, Gentle Giant were well known as a cult band and of course in prog circles and King Crimson also(but even more so). Genesis were actually right there along side them but then started to climb the charts and over took them especially after PG left. Of course certain bands were more popular than others in certain areas. Genesis were most well known in the northeastern part of the US(during the PG era)and the band Renaissance had a strong following in upstate NY of all places. Then of course Jethro Tull were always popular or at least starting with Benefit and especially after Aqualung. You hit the nail on the head with Floyd, Yes and ELP though. Bubbling just under them would be KC, Genesis and JT if you count them and then a little later Kansas and Rush. But it doesn't really matter much anymore these days because most people(or at least most younger people) who get into prog now seem to get into it through metal or prog metal with bands like Opeth and dozens of others. |
In terms of success, Gentle Giant were no more successful than Renaissance and never had a hit single (albeit that was a pop song) either. Rather, the weight of their work has given them a measure of influence Renaissance cannot lay claim to. Genesis had reached around Ren's level of charting success in the US by the time of Lamb and with Trick of the Tail got to 31. Another thing is Genesis went gold with some of their albums in US which Renaissance failed to achieve. And of course, Genesis were hugely successful in the UK where Renaissance had less success than in the US. Yeah, Yes, Floyd and ELP in the top tier and KC, Genesis, JT a rung below. GG and VDGG lacked commercial success but commanded influence. The bands in your poll largely lack both influence and success.
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presdoug
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Posted: January 27 2018 at 19:16 |
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Must confess, I don't like seeing my favourite band in bottom position. I have heard all of the bands listed in this poll in detail, and none of them is in Triumvirat's league, in my books.
If music is a universal language, Triumvirat are a perfect example of why and how. Though many years past, they cracked the top 50 and then the top 30 in America with their albums. One of the first German bands to ever do so.
They went to the top 4 position in popularity in Brazil, where they were definitely "one tier" in terms of popularity there.
Also scored a Number One album in Portugal in 1976.
Yes, I know, it was years ago, but I am not the only one that still reveres them so much.
youtube Triumvirat albums have tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of viewings, with the comments below sometimes approaching over 100.
When there was a newsletter on the old, now static, Triumvirat website, it had subscribers from literally every corner of the world.
How's that for a band that split in 1980?
Anyway, I know I am obsessional in a way about them, so please bear with me. It is my way.
Edited by presdoug - January 27 2018 at 20:22
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Joined: October 02 2016
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Posted: January 27 2018 at 18:25 |
Mortte wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ that is interesting actually. I wasn't around to experience prog in its heyday so the context of the band's popularity as relative to how they are perceived today is interesting actually. I know Pink Floyd, Yes and ELP were popular but who else actually was? In real prog terms that is (not The Who, Led Zep or any other prog related) |
According to BBC document ten most popular prog bands in order has been: Pink Floyd, Moody Blues, Genesis, Jethro Tull, Yes, ELP, Rush, King Crimson, Hawkwind & Camel. To me it suprises a little that Jethro has sold more albums than Yes, although I knew Jethro was really popular in the states in the seventies. |
That's from a UK perspective though. IN the US Yes would rank higher than Genesis(but only as a prog band)and Camel and Hawkwind would barely make the prog radar in the US except among the real hardcore fans. For Jethro Tull I think their UK and worldwide sales are a bit higher than Yes but in the US I think Yes have probably sold as many if not more albums. Both bands used to play at Madison Square Garden so it's kind of splitting hairs anyway. Only thing is that at one point Yes held the record for most sold out shows at MSG and not just for prog but that includes any band(even Led Zeppelin). Of course that record has been broken many times over since by(and I'm guessing here) the likes of Grateful Dead, Billy Joel, Bruce, Elton etc.
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Posted: January 27 2018 at 18:20 |
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ that is interesting actually. I wasn't around to experience prog in its heyday so the context of the band's popularity as relative to how they are perceived today is interesting actually. I know Pink Floyd, Yes and ELP were popular but who else actually was? In real prog terms that is (not The Who, Led Zep or any other prog related) |
I've always been interested in charts and statistics and things like that. Who else was? Well, Gentle Giant were well known as a cult band and of course in prog circles and King Crimson also(but even more so). Genesis were actually right there along side them but then started to climb the charts and over took them especially after PG left. Of course certain bands were more popular than others in certain areas. Genesis were most well known in the northeastern part of the US(during the PG era)and the band Renaissance had a strong following in upstate NY of all places. Then of course Jethro Tull were always popular or at least starting with Benefit and especially after Aqualung. You hit the nail on the head with Floyd, Yes and ELP though. Bubbling just under them would be KC, Genesis and JT if you count them and then a little later Kansas and Rush. But it doesn't really matter much anymore these days because most people(or at least most younger people) who get into prog now seem to get into it through metal or prog metal with bands like Opeth and dozens of others.
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**xyzzy**
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Posted: January 27 2018 at 17:47 |
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I cannot vote in this poll, but if I could:
UK
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Posted: January 27 2018 at 11:47 |
nice poll.... and outside of Eloy (and U.K) and a few others which sort of sticks out to me as being a division or two over ranked here.. a very good sampling of 2nd tier bands... the first tier of course being the Yes/ELP/KC/Floyd/Dull/Genesis first tier/Mount Rushmore of prog
what you have can be paired down into a very plausible tier 2, but with one major exception and one lesser one. Magma and perhaps VDGG. Tier 2 is what we often called the cult favs. As good, or nearly as good as the tier 1's but just that something missing or simply too foreign to do what the tier 1 did... take prog to the masses and become the faces of prog.. not simply for the fans.. but to those who aren't fans.
of the choices... PFM... had it all.. talent, eclectic music that could both sooth and slay, longevity with strings of classic 5 star albums and still killing it into the new century... if not for the language.. thus lack of larger exposure and influence.. a clear tier 1 talent.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
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Posted: January 24 2018 at 12:37 |
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For all the distracting discussion about "second tier", this is actually a pretty pleasant poll in the sense that the votes are distributed quite nicely (I had no idea who'd win this and a few more voters may easily change the ranking quite a bit) and there's enough quality music from these bands for everyone on this site to enjoy.
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Second tier bands
