A question about prog-related

There are clear deviations from the ProgRelated guidelines ~ that bands added must include musicians who were significant or connected to prog rock ~ Metallica and Iron Maiden to name two, who though pioneers in prog-metal had absolutely no direct personal connection to prog rock.   Whereas before Bon Scott joined AC/DC, he fronted a very prog band called Fraternity.   But if taken word-for-word, the PA policy dictates AC/DC should be in ProgRelated because their singer significantly contributed to the early Art/Prog scene.   You see the inevitable problem, and it undoubtedly causes confusion.  

There are also artists who may in hindsight deserve to be on PA, but don't have a clear place since it is not a general Rock or progressive music site: John Lennon and Brian Wilson are two who come to mind who would fall into the infamous "Related to Prog Related" column.

It may help to keep in mind the motivation for creating a ProgRelated category; PR is not a genre or style of music.   It seeks to acknowledge the artists in rock history that contributed to and/or whose members were markedly influenced by the Art Rock/Prog Rock movement, a group of players who were finite and small in scope (if quite common during prog's peak years).   It was not devised as place to deposit any artist that may be deemed near-progressive, para-progressive, or post-progressive.   It is not an animate, evolving subgenre of music and should not be treated as such.  

As for Phil Collins, I suspect it is as much a lack of political will as it is whether he is Prog Related according to PA guidelines--  He clearly is, after practically leading two of the most important rock bands of his time, and his solo albums are obviously admissible here as a Related artist.   The rule demands it and I think someday he will probably be added, I just don't think anyone wants to review his records.




Edited by Atavachron - October 31 2017 at 23:26

OK, glad our little village is (trying) taking care of its refugees

I questioned the team about Renbourn sometime ago - really don't know if he was rejected or simply lost from memory

BarryGlibb wrote: I noticed that recently Bert Jansch has been demoted from Prog Folk to Prog-related, which is fine, as he was definitely not Prog and initially I was very grateful that he was voted onto PA but I think Prog Folk-related would actually tell the uniformed on the PA site what he actually played i.e. folk music with an edge. So I am all for this type of classification...then maybe the likes of John Renbourn, Richard Thompson, etc could be included.

ForestFriend wrote: Taking a very practical approach to original question, in my opinion, I think it would be good to feature bands solely because of significant involvement of prog musicians (or former prog musicians). The reason is simple - if for example, Jon Anderson, Bill Bruford, Rick Wakeman and Steve Howe team up and create an album that isn't by Yes, I'm going to want to hear from other fans of Yes and prog rock whether or not it lives up to their expectations. It doesn't matter whether or not it's the greatest prog album ever, or if it's the greatest pop-country album ever - I, and I'm sure a lot of prog rock fans, are interested in knowing whether or not their work is worth our time and money. I don't want to have to go to CountryArchives and see that people who love pop-country gave it 5 stars; I want to know if it fits into my prog collection. I know some people are hesitant about certain bands/artists getting onto ProgArchives as if it's going to taint the entire website. Personally, I think it's better to be more inclusive than not. Go ahead, put Phil Collins on here; if he gets a lot of 1 star ratings for not being prog, then this website will have served its purpose. In my opinion, it's the ratings that tell us if the music is prog and worth listening to, not whether or not the artist is here.

Sorry for not responding to your post, ForestFriend, but regarding Lemming's last post, I wont parse it much since I don't wish to misrepresent the intentions and not be seen to be charitable, but regarding Glover, I apologise for misremembering the case (it might seem a poor excuse, but I do have neurological damage which has resulted in memory loss). I went back and read my comments on the case and I wasn't remembering the details. I also was concerned at the time that he was a related to prog Related artists and that he released an album that could be considered Prog. I won't go into details, but it was not a straightforward case.   I actually thought him best for Crossover at the time, but felt that Elements deserved a place in PA even if not in the best fitting sub.   Right or wrong, that's sort of been a philosophy of mine. I'm not into Rainbow or Deep Purple, by the way, and didn't even know who he was before looking into him back then. SO mea culpa. And by the way, being a Canadian, British, and Australian citizen, I like to think that I have a little of what I think are the good qualities of each. The British sense of self-deprecation, the Canadian propensity to apologise, and the Australian attitude of "she'll be right". A fair dinkum apology for an confusion due to my befuddled brain.

As for Captcha, I wouldn't think that it's being used as a convenient scapegoat, but what do I know? I think something like it is necessary, and perhaps there are no ways to modify it or other programs that would work sufficiently well with the software to make it easier for people to write reviews and post, but it is an issue that affects my and others enjoyment of this site, and has led to some valued members leaving the site. Hopefully with this post I will pass the Turing test. Bringing it up was a bit of a non sequitur by me, though, but I was frustrated since I was finding it so tough to get my posts through. Anyway, I will now bow out of this thread (rather regret posting in at all, to be honest).

Edited by Logan - October 15 2017 at 13:04

I noticed that recently Bert Jansch has been demoted from Prog Folk to Prog-related, which is fine, as he was definitely not Prog and initially I was very grateful that he was voted onto PA but I think Prog Folk-related would actually tell the uniformed on the PA site what he actually played i.e. folk music with an edge. So I am all for this type of classification...then maybe the likes of John Renbourn, Richard Thompson, etc could be included.

^ I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. Improving this site from a technical viewpoint is what I think is most needed, but yes, that's out of any of our control.

As for Lemming's points, and I won't quote anymore because that brings on the dreaded Captchas for me, during my tenure I want to point out that we have only added one act to Prog Related, which is Roger Glover (added in 2016), and it ticked the boxes really well.   Haven't had any complaints.   The complaints I hear about are old additions to Prog Related and many of those were added either by ProgLucky -- early site owner -- or when anyone could add anything and those were later moved to a Prog Related-created category. The owners decided to have a policy against deletion of artists once added as some reading this post might not know. Of course people complain about artists not added to Prog Related, so as silly puppy says, you can't please everyone. I try to be balanced. I'm glad that you appreciated the humour of my Management Training Seminar type phrase, I commonly do try to bring in some levity to my posts.

^ Hummm - that seems to me a sensible wise posture for the time being (not wanting to neglect the benefits of the deeper reflection our comrades have been producing, of course)

Logan wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: Logan wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: Logan wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: Logan wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: Logan wrote: ^^^ Regarding John Cale, for his album with Terry Riley, Church of Anthrax, and for The Academy in Peril, I am supportive of his inclusion in Prog Archives (Terry Riley more so still). I think we're both glad Cale is here (I'm a huge fan) but I hear more erm... 'avant garde rock' than 'Prog' in something like Church of Anthrax or the Academy in Peril. (and that's also true of the Velvet Underground who I adore equally but they also certainly don't belong on PA IMO) That said, let's not argue about the vase if we both love the flowers.... I will leap at the chance for a little discussion (there's too little of that at this site imo). I prefer dialectic to debate form.... You could say the same about more avant-garde rockthan Prog of the Residents, yet that band is in a so-called "Prog genre" category unlike Cale who is in Prog Related. I would think that there is a cogent arguent for Cale in related as an Avant-Prog Related artist based on both of those albums. We've long had progressive, experimental, art music in Prog Archives' "Prog" categories that would not pass muster for a Prog purist, and glad I am for that. Various music in categories such as Progressive Electronic, RIO/Avant Prog, Krautrock, Indo Prog/ Raga Rock and more might also be said to be avant garde rock rather than Prog, but the PA Prog umbrella is wide and porous. Church of Anthrax may not be Prog proper, but I would say that it is a form of progressive/ experimental rock with Avant Prog, Art Rock, and even Krautrock qualities. To me that album would not be out of place in a PA Prog category, which is not to say that I'm suggesting that Cale be moved. The experimental qualities of Academy of Peril are less Prog to me but I do see a Prog category relation. As for Velvet Underground, I don't think that I personally would be opposed to having it in PA in a "non-Prog" category for its 1960's art rock and experimental qualities (even has some folk rock). Think I'll spin Velvet Underground & Nico right now; it has been a while. I've long thought that that a cogent case could be made for the band, but I tend to be more inclusive in my personal Prog umbrella, Proto-Prog and Prog Related classification (but not so much when it comes to decisions on what I think "should" be included). Our robot overlords do not approve of this post -- try, try, try, try, try try, try again.... Argh, this is so time consuming. I am not, nor have I ever been, a robot. I read you as being an advocate of PA taking those final steps into becoming an all encompassing  'Progressive Music' site and consigning the previous focus on the continuing influence of 1st Gen Prog on current developments in Rock to the past (where many, with some justification would consider it belongs) Strangely enough I would say the same about the Residents who I love but don't consider remotely Prog (not even RIO/Avant, because for me they were, are and always will be a Psychedelic Rock/Pop band - not a million miles away in spirit albeit not sound from VU and the Doors) Similarly, I've never felt that the vast majority of Krautrock artists are even remotely Prog. Experimental, challenging and adventurous certainly but so are the legions of hugely influential Post Punk bands whose CDs fill my shelves at Lemming Towers. If we had a more visible owner, I'm guessing that what might be the site's watershed moment would have occurred long before now. This much has been predicted by the likes of Micky for what seems the longest time and intuited by the likes of Dean, Moshkito and Baldfriede on more than one occasion. Me? I think for the site to survive we need to park the Prog bandwagon and start to explore our own (open plan) surroundings. Take it to the MAX. As you know, taking it to the MAX does tend to prove pretty futile here. I certainly have been an advocate for such an approach since joining here. partially that's because I commonly find typical generic Prog dull, and stayed here for the progressive (red interesting to me) music. I've thought that progressive rock should be about breaking free from rock canon and genre (including Prog genre) expectations, and I have been happy to see music here that I would not classify as rock at all (I love the electronic category here for instance, which has some rock albums, but a lot that isn't). And in case anyone jumps in, I do understand the difference between progressive (adjective) and Prog (noun), so no need to delve too deeply on that distinction. I think that expanding the parameters would help the site -- that can bring in more people. If this were my site it would operate very differently. It would transform into progressive/ experimental music archives with a focus on 1950s-up music and in fact I might even eventually expand it to progressive arts and thoughts archives with no temporal limits. There'd be a place for the likes of Stockhausen and Johnny Rotten, and possibly David Lynch and Lars von Trier as well as various progressive thinkers (Plato would find a place, for instance). An Arts, sciences, humanities one stop shop, but I'm getting too fanciful. Eventually the site would expand to take over the whole internet and be the archive of all that is good, but that's a pipe dream, of course. At least we can discuss anything in the fora, which is where my main interest in this site resides, but that can sure take some patience. At this time though, I don't care so much about site direction, I'd just be happy to see the obvious obstacles gone such as how Captcha is working. I can't get anything through today without trying and trying and trying again. So, if a current Admin thinks that music that would ordinarily not qualify as 'Rock' can be deserving of inclusion on a site currently dedicated to Progressive Rock, what action would you advocate to bring about such a change of policy for PA? (I'm not trying to be difficult here but both of us might agree that anyone's avowed aim of expansion/inclusion rests entirely upon the vested interests of the site owner) Note to start off: Reading back on my post I notice that I did not quite convey in text what was in my head. I meant o say that I was an advocate for such change especially when joining here. A better still way to put it is that I've made many "suggestions" for changes over the years, including suggestions for ways to become more inclusive, some of which flew and most of which didn't. Since taking on the title of admin -- which I only did because a software upgrade lessened my abilities as a moderator which I have been for most of my time at this site -- I have not suggested nearly so much. I was more vocal before gaining this title, and more vocal still before the moderator title. It's not my site, and I don't wish to advocate such things, although I still will speak of such as a member of this forum. I don't see it as a change of policy (and I know I've talked about these issues before so sorry if I sound like a broken record). We already had non-rock music at this site before I even joined (I guess it also depends upon how loosely one defines rock -- I'm fine with people putting, for instance, Progressive Electronic loosely under the rock moniker, but a lot of that many people would not call rock). In Avant prog, is Aranis rock music, or to what extent, in fact how rock is much Rock in Opposition? That subset probably best exemplifies what I think were Prog's possibilities, incidentally. It's hard in such conversations, because one must not only define what one means by Prog but also what one means by rock. Changes are up to the site owner, but I rarely talk to him and don't know very well what his vested interests are (lots of site traffic would be the main one I would assume and as an important corollary, ad revenue). I don't claim to know his mind or be more than mildly acquainted with him. I don't really even know what his grand vision is if he has one, but I do know that he's busy with lots of stuff (as are many of us), and that's fine, though I do wish something could be done about Captcha. In my role as an Admin I work according to the guidelines that have been developed to a large extent by past admins who were also volunteers (of course you know about that). Some of this has been done by admin with active guidance from higher up, and some not (quite a lot not I think). In terms of advocacy, I'm mostly a forum guy, and would like to advocate that people are civil, rational, compassionate, gracious, try to follow the site rules, and try to be open-minded (but no so-open that one's brains fall out). If I get the ear of the site owner, there are quite a few suggestions that I'd like to make. It would be up to him if he wants to adopt any of it. This is a community, and I actually care more about the members here than I do the project, but I try to help out with some site business. If this were my site, surely things would be very different (I would hope to involve the community in the decision making process too), and while I have personal feeling about how I would like to see this site evolve, I don;t wish to pushy with that agenda. There is difference between what I would like for the site and what I think should be done to the site just as I alluded to before how I'm more inclusive in what I include under the Prog umbrella (according to how I use the term) but that is not to say that those "should" be included in Prog Archives. Prog Archives is not, of course, my archives. The archives in my mind palace (and music collection) are very different indeed, and I separate the two. So, just to be absolutely clear, I'm not trying to advocate any changes here to current policy or even suggesting them (at least not formally). Down the road I might, but not today. I could go back over past posts to lists the proposals I've made over the years, but I don't want to take this topic more off-track. Okay, I still would like to advocate for a Various Artists page for artists who were not let in due to discography concerns despite having at least one Prog album, but I have raised that so many times over the years that it must be boring. And of course, like others, I pushed for album tagging. Years ago, I did suggest that Prog Related and Proto Prog be revamped and organised into sub categories (for instance, Avant Prog Related, Symphonic Prog Related, Prog Folk Related etc. but I think at this time that would be total pain and would make for too much demand on the categories. As I said in an earlier post, the musical qualities/ relation are to me personally (not so much in my role at this site) more important than the personnel. I, also, would be more enthusiastic about an artist getting into Prog Related that has progressive music qualities than one that is rock lacking progressive qualities, but that's partially because of where my musical interests lie. On a related note: I would think that by having this site have a narrow focus it would get less page hits and less ad revenue than if it had a wider purview. Too big a net, though, could damage the site's credibility as a Prog Archive (which is what it ought to remain first and foremost in my opinion, but it's not up to me). Some say that the net is already far too big and some think there are too many holes in that net. Such a long post, I'm sure there must be many mistakes and areas that would require further clarification. Sorry of not answering directly -- I'm not trying to obfuscate matters. And again, Captcha does not approve. A lot to process there certainly but thanks for taking the trouble to set out your thoughts. You are clearly passionate about the music you like and the community aspects of PA. Just some thoughts of my own: Album tagging - PA is the oldest of Max's three sites and AFAIK it's a database software limitation that prevents us from being able to tag albums (unlike Metal and Jazz archives) You state there is already non Rock music on PA in the Progressive Electronic and RIO/Avant categories and welcome such additions: do you therefore believe that the existing evaluation process and genre definitions are consistent with such music? (we both might agree that developments in art make it the ultimate moving target so it stands to reason our evaluation criteria also have to change) You state that you feel the main focus of the site should be to remain a Prog Archive but I cannot see how we can do this AND reflect the contemporary musical developments that might attract a wider progressive music demographic. (notwithstanding the Forum of course) I don't believe we can do justice to both without  wholesale changes to what's on the PA menu. I do agree however that a site that casts its net too wide will usually end up failing. Back on Topic - Prog Related should be locked to preserve the reviews but no new additions. it's become the faintly risible equivalent of the 'Reader's Wives' section in a porn mag. (not that I read such things of course) Rest assured I'm treating everything you post as being your own opinion and not a reflection of the views or policies of PA, but nothing in your post makes me believe there is even the smallest appetite for change at the Admin level and that's a pity. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I feel the heat (and some sting) of your passion too. ;) I state that there is music that I would not classify as rock in those categories. Aranis has done work in the rock universe, and I have argued before that even albums which might appear to be rock free have rock forms and similarities. That the band plays RIO (Rock in Opposition) festivals indicates some relation to rock. There are bands in various categories that I would not readily classify as rock, but I still put in that universe. Also, like I was saying, it rather depends upon how one defines rock. Some have stricter definitions and parameters than others. As for Progressive Electronic, while there is much music that I would not classify as rock, one could readily argue a rock relation. Many of those bands draw on rock and many have a relation to Krautrock and space rock generally. I happen to love Kosmische music, not that it matters. I think that Philippe did a wonderful job with defining and giving a guide to PE. He was strict with what was included (a reason why say Vangelis and Jarre is not in there, but instead are in Prog Related although one might argue for Vangelis being a better fit in, say, Crossover). There is a new team and they have rather wider parameters, methinks. Personally, I liked the parameters of Philippe. As for the RIO and Avant Prog definitions/guide, I see no problem with them. I think they did a good job and it describes those well. Others better versed in rock might be better to speak of such things, but I got a feel for all of the categories by listening to much of the music (especially during my early years here as I don't listen to much new-to-me music anymore as I'm no as passionate about discovering music as I once was), and that gives me a feel for what I think fits where. Prog Related additions are rare and should satisfy various criteria, but I personally don't wish to see a moratorium on them. I'm rather surprised by your last paragraph. I'm not intending to touch on what the more venerable and much harder-working than I Admin think, and I see no need to draw such inference from my typically inane thoughts. There is change that we all would like to see (especially Captcha with me). As a community, I would hope that all would bring their perspectives to the table and work together to effect change (and work with the site owner to continuously improve this majestic venture). Anyway, selfishly I've talked far too much and would be interested to hear more about the changes/ improvements that you would like to see and how you would like to implement them (perhaps M@x and the community will help make it a reality).

I deliberately took the trouble to clarify that I take your opinions as being yours alone and as not being representative of the Admins but I admit that on reflection: nothing in your post makes me believe there is even the smallest appetite for change at the Admin level and that's a pity rather contradicts this so unreserved apologies from me for some muddled thinking (but I do still hold to that opinion). Perhaps I'm completely missing the point but I still get the impression you feel the existing genre definitions are all we need to accommodate whatever future developments Progressive Rock has in store and that there is no contradiction in widening the net to include progressive music that contains neither Prog or Rock. We're starting to sound like historians who are trying to read someone's palm.

As far as changes I'd like to see implemented:

I would lock Prog Related to keep the reviews but no more additions, the genre creates more problems than it solves

If MAX believes that CAPTCHA makes the site less vulnerable to potentially damaging external attacks, it's not going to disappear in a hurry. Yep, it's a pain in the derriere but then again, so is data loss.

I would support your idea for another genre where admission is on an album basis i.e. include someone's solitary fully fledged Prog album but not the rest of their discography etc. Anecdotal evidence however, would indicate MAX remains strenuously opposed to this idea and the actual deleting of albums is AFAIK unprecedented on PA.

We should seek some sort of broad consensus among the membership to establish if PA should remain a Prog Rock Archive (as you intend) or if it should be changed to be a much broader church for all manner of progressive music hitherto denied admission as being beyond the scope of the extant genre definitions.

This being a volunteer site, there is very little that can be done to ensure your hope
"that all would bring their perspectives to the table and work together to effect change" will ever amount to anything other than a platitude cribbed from a Management Training seminar.